Bruce Lages Posted November 7, 2011 at 07:49 PM Report Share Posted November 7, 2011 at 07:49 PM RONR, 11th ed., p66, ll. 16-22, states "For each of the first five subsidiary motions (...), there is a corresponding incidental main motion (p.101) of the same name that can be made when no other motion is pending."What would be an example of the motion to amend (not amend something previoulsy adopted) used as an incidental main motion? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Mervosh Posted November 7, 2011 at 07:53 PM Report Share Posted November 7, 2011 at 07:53 PM Amend something previously adopted is a corresponding incidental main motion to the subsidiary motion to amend.....are you looking for another example? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Lages Posted November 7, 2011 at 08:44 PM Author Report Share Posted November 7, 2011 at 08:44 PM Thanks, George. I was having trouble coming up with a scenario in which amend, by itself, could be used as an incidental main motion with no other motion pending. All the obvious examples that came to mind were amending something previously adopted, such as minutes from an earlier meeting that had already been approved, or an agenda that had been already approved.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary c Tesser Posted November 8, 2011 at 10:03 AM Report Share Posted November 8, 2011 at 10:03 AM What just happened? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trina Posted November 8, 2011 at 12:31 PM Report Share Posted November 8, 2011 at 12:31 PM What just happened?And here I was hoping you had dreamed up the example requested by Mr. Lages Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary c Tesser Posted November 10, 2011 at 07:21 AM Report Share Posted November 10, 2011 at 07:21 AM It started out a normal inoffensive day, trees twittering, birds rustling their leaves in the cool morning light … or whichever. I wasn’t looking. That’s nature stuff, it’ll take care of itself, especially when it starts so early in the morning, like before noon.Then I see Bruce Lages, hitherto not a source of disconcerting flummoxing though emplanted spang there across the river in what he calls Northeastern NJ, sets us up by asking for an example of amend that’s not ASPA.So George Mervosh, soul of cheery obliging clarity and nary a font of effluvious lugubrium hitherto, incomprehensively offers Mr Lages … Amend Something Previously Adopted.So what does Mr Lages do but thank George, and for what? Not for Amend Something Previously Adopted!So I go and ask what’s going on!!?!So Trina goes and thinks I’m the one who didn’t answer Bruce Lages’s question, so Bruce went and thanks me for it!??!Does anyone understand any of this?(On top of which, Thursday is coming up. Oh no!)_______N. B. “Effluvious” and “lugubrium” probably are not words, at least not until the 115th element is discovered sadly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary c Tesser Posted November 10, 2011 at 07:34 AM Report Share Posted November 10, 2011 at 07:34 AM (It still won't let me edit! "Incomprehensively" is not a word!~ -- at least not the word I want it to be!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Mervosh Posted November 10, 2011 at 01:37 PM Report Share Posted November 10, 2011 at 01:37 PM First off, if this is the best the overnight crew can do here, you and Fluffy should just go back to bed. I didn't do anything but tell Bruce what he already knew, and hopefully quieted his mind about the matter, especially since no one else in the last two days has swooped in to give him an example other than Amend Something Previously Adopted. Isn't that good enough? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Honemann Posted November 10, 2011 at 02:38 PM Report Share Posted November 10, 2011 at 02:38 PM First off, if this is the best the overnight crew can do here, you and Fluffy should just go back to bed. I didn't do anything but tell Bruce what he already knew, and hopefully quieted his mind about the matter, especially since no one else in the last two days has swooped in to give him an example other than Amend Something Previously Adopted. Isn't that good enough? Absolutely good enough. Advanced Discussion at its finest! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary c Tesser Posted November 11, 2011 at 09:11 PM Report Share Posted November 11, 2011 at 09:11 PM Ordinarily, if I were asked what to do with the incidental main motion To Amend, I might eventually have floundered around to the hypothesis that it should be applied to something previously adopted, and that’s all there is to it. I still can’t think of anything else, but the coda to George Mervosh’s reply (post #2) suggested there might be one, and Bruce Lages’s thank-you seems to be thanking him, but somehow for what he had specifically not asked for. But perhaps Mr Lages (how is that pronounced, not necessarily in New Jersey?) was thanking Mr Mervosh for clarifying in his mind that, indeed, ASPA is all there is to it. Could I be over-thinking this? Is it as if I thought Mr Lages were asking for, say, an example of an incidental motion to Limit Debate that would be applied to something other than debate, or for an example of an IMM to Suspend the Rules to be applied to something other than a rule? In short (don’t believe it), is there anything that can be amended other than a pending motion, or one previously adopted? In other words, if Bruce had replied, “Yes, please” when Mr Mervosh asked him, “are you looking for another example?”, was George preparing to tell Bruce, “Well, Bruce, there isn’t one”?Is it that there isn’t at all a box here that we can try thinking outside of, no envelope to push (or just lick the flap of till the glue gets us cross-eyed)? If there’s nothing, what was Trina hoping I had dreamed up? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Honemann Posted November 11, 2011 at 09:15 PM Report Share Posted November 11, 2011 at 09:15 PM Ordinarily, if I were asked what to do with the incidental main motion To Amend, I might eventually have floundered around to the hypothesis that it should be applied to something previously adopted, and that’s all there is to it. I still can’t think of anything else, but the coda to George Mervosh’s reply (post #2) suggested there might be one, and Bruce Lages’s thank-you seems to be thanking him, but somehow for what he had specifically not asked for. But perhaps Mr Lages (how is that pronounced, not necessarily in New Jersey?) was thanking Mr Mervosh for clarifying in his mind that, indeed, ASPA is all there is to it. Could I be over-thinking this? Is it as if I thought Mr Lages were asking for, say, an example of an incidental motion to Limit Debate that would be applied to something other than debate, or for an example of an IMM to Suspend the Rules to be applied to something other than a rule? In short (don’t believe it), is there anything that can be amended other than a pending motion, or one previously adopted? In other words, if Bruce had replied, “Yes, please” when Mr Mervosh asked him, “are you looking for another example?”, was George preparing to tell Bruce, “Well, Bruce, there isn’t one”?Is it that there isn’t at all a box here that we can try thinking outside of, no envelope to push (or just lick the flap of till the glue gets us cross-eyed)? If there’s nothing, what was Trina hoping I had dreamed up?Advanced Discussion at its finest! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trina Posted November 11, 2011 at 09:25 PM Report Share Posted November 11, 2011 at 09:25 PM ...Is it that there isn’t at all a box here that we can try thinking outside of, no envelope to push (or just lick the flap of till the glue gets us cross-eyed)? If there’s nothing, what was Trina hoping I had dreamed up?Well, I couldn't think of anything, but hadn't spent much time thinking about it either. If anyone did come up with an example other than ASPA, that would have been interesting and surprising -- that's all I meant by my earlier post. I wasn't hinting that I had another example in mind... because I don't... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Honemann Posted November 11, 2011 at 09:30 PM Report Share Posted November 11, 2011 at 09:30 PM Well, I couldn't think of anything, but hadn't spent much time thinking about it either. If anyone did come up with an example other than ASPA, that would have been interesting and surprising -- that's all I meant by my earlier post. I wasn't hinting that I had another example in mind... because I don't...Advanced Discussion at its finest! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trina Posted November 11, 2011 at 09:31 PM Report Share Posted November 11, 2011 at 09:31 PM Advanced Discussion at its finest!Think we'll hit 50 posts on this thread?Shutting up now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Hunt Posted November 11, 2011 at 09:33 PM Report Share Posted November 11, 2011 at 09:33 PM At the risk of the Wrath of Dan, what about amending a motion temporarily disposed of? I can't find any specific text forbidding it, in particular if a motion is laid on the table (it's more murky in the case of a postponed motion). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Lages Posted November 12, 2011 at 04:11 PM Author Report Share Posted November 12, 2011 at 04:11 PM But perhaps Mr Lages (how is that pronounced, not necessarily in New Jersey?) was thanking Mr Mervosh for clarifying in his mind that, indeed, ASPA is all there is to it. Could I be over-thinking this?Yes, Gary, you might. George did clarify for me that ASPA is probably the only likely way to see amend as an incidental main motion. I just thought that, since RONR treats amend and ASPA as different classes of motions, there might be a specific case of amend, by itself, as an incidental main motion.(And it's pronounced Lay-jes (rhymes with pages) in New Jersey and elsewhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Nancy N. Posted November 13, 2011 at 01:52 AM Report Share Posted November 13, 2011 at 01:52 AM At the risk of the Wrath of Dan, what about amending a motion temporarily disposed of? I can't find any specific text forbidding it, in particular if a motion is laid on the table (it's more murky in the case of a postponed motion).Sean, I haven't looked thoroughly myself, but I think the principle is that generally a motion (or something in general, if something other than a motion can be involved without my noticing it yet) cannot be tinkered with when it is not pending. (An exception might be when a motion to substitute is pending, but I'm not going to think about that now.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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