George Mervosh Posted February 11, 2014 at 04:39 PM Report Share Posted February 11, 2014 at 04:39 PM A motion to amend the bylaws is presented with the proviso attached that the amendment shall not take effect until the 2015 annual meeting. The bylaw amendment is adopted with that proviso attached without further amendment. Can the society, prior to the 2015 annual meeting amend the proviso or rescind it? If so, what is the vote required? Does the answer change if the proviso was adopted as an incidental motion or an amendment to the enacting words of the motion? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Edgar Posted February 11, 2014 at 04:49 PM Report Share Posted February 11, 2014 at 04:49 PM Does the answer change if the proviso was adopted as an incidental motion or an amendment to the enacting words of the motion? I'm not sure what is meant by "an amendment to the enacting words of the motion" but it seems to me that the motion (which contains both the proviso and the changes to the bylaws) could be amended in the usual way. The proviso (part) can be amended up until it's implemented (and the bylaws can always be amended). The proviso is not "attached" to the bylaws amendment. The proviso is part of the motion to amend the bylaws. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Mervosh Posted February 11, 2014 at 04:59 PM Author Report Share Posted February 11, 2014 at 04:59 PM I'm not sure what is meant by "an amendment to the enacting words of the motion" "While the amendment is pending, a motion can be made to amend the enacting words of the motion to amend by adding a clause such as this: ". . . with the proviso that [or, ". . . provided, however, that"] this amendment shall not go into effect until after the close of this annual meeting." Or, while the amendment is pending, an incidental motion can be adopted that, in the event of the amendment's adoption, it shall not take effect until a specified time." RONR (11th ed.), p. 597 emphasis added by me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh Martin Posted February 11, 2014 at 05:30 PM Report Share Posted February 11, 2014 at 05:30 PM A motion to amend the bylaws is presented with the proviso attached that the amendment shall not take effect until the 2015 annual meeting. The bylaw amendment is adopted with that proviso attached without further amendment. Can the society, prior to the 2015 annual meeting amend the proviso or rescind it? If so, what is the vote required? Does the answer change if the proviso was adopted as an incidental motion or an amendment to the enacting words of the motion? The proviso may certainly be amended or rescinded. Regardless of how the proviso was adopted, I'd say it would have the same requirements as an amendment to the bylaws. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Mervosh Posted February 11, 2014 at 05:34 PM Author Report Share Posted February 11, 2014 at 05:34 PM The proviso may certainly be amended or rescinded. Regardless of how the proviso was adopted, I'd say it would have the same requirements as an amendment to the bylaws. I wanted to make sure I wasn't missing anything because I can't see how any other voting threshold would be proper. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jstackpo Posted February 11, 2014 at 06:39 PM Report Share Posted February 11, 2014 at 06:39 PM I wanted to make sure I wasn't missing anything because I can't see how any other voting threshold would be proper.Agreed, particularly since a proviso actually outranks a bylaw, falling, I suppose, in an unidentified rules-space between the bylaws and a charter in the hierarchy of rules. e.g., p. 560, lines 22-24. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh Martin Posted February 11, 2014 at 06:44 PM Report Share Posted February 11, 2014 at 06:44 PM Agreed, particularly since a proviso actually outranks a bylaw, falling, I suppose, in an unidentified rules-space between the bylaws and a charter in the hierarchy of rules. I wouldn't say that a proviso to the bylaws outranks the bylaws. Rather, it has the same rank as the bylaws. It takes precedence over other rules in the bylaws because of the specfic trumps general rule. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Hunt Posted February 11, 2014 at 06:52 PM Report Share Posted February 11, 2014 at 06:52 PM I agree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary c Tesser Posted February 11, 2014 at 07:11 PM Report Share Posted February 11, 2014 at 07:11 PM I agree. To which, now? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Honemann Posted February 11, 2014 at 08:01 PM Report Share Posted February 11, 2014 at 08:01 PM The proviso may certainly be amended or rescinded. Regardless of how the proviso was adopted, I'd say it would have the same requirements as an amendment to the bylaws. For the moment, let's say that the proviso is adopted by the adoption of an incidental motion. Can a motion to Amend or Rescind Something Previously Adopted be applied to anything adopted by such a motion? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Mervosh Posted February 11, 2014 at 08:18 PM Author Report Share Posted February 11, 2014 at 08:18 PM For the moment, let's say that the proviso is adopted by the adoption of an incidental motion. Can a motion to Amend or Rescind Something Previously Adopted be applied to anything adopted by such a motion? While you wait for Josh, I considered posting this same question, but in my reading of RONR it seems the proviso and bylaw amendment are tied together at the hip and the adopted proviso only has continuing force by virtue of the fact the main motion was adopted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Honemann Posted February 11, 2014 at 08:22 PM Report Share Posted February 11, 2014 at 08:22 PM While you wait for Josh, I considered posting this same question, but in my reading of RONR it seems the proviso and bylaw amendment are tied together at the hip and the adopted proviso only has continuing force by virtue of the fact the main motion was adopted. Perhaps so, but what about SDC 2 on page 305? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Mervosh Posted February 11, 2014 at 08:32 PM Author Report Share Posted February 11, 2014 at 08:32 PM Perhaps so, but what about SDC 2 on page 305? I think I understand your point. The keywords, I think, being " which was made or created at any time or times as the result of the adoption of one or more main motions." That sounds problematic when the incidental motion is adopted separately. But is it? Is it not really granted its continuing force and effect status only as a result of the adoption of one or more main motions? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh Martin Posted February 11, 2014 at 08:44 PM Report Share Posted February 11, 2014 at 08:44 PM For the moment, let's say that the proviso is adopted by the adoption of an incidental motion. Can a motion to Amend or Rescind Something Previously Adopted be applied to anything adopted by such a motion? It would seem not, so perhaps the motion to cancel or change a proviso adopted by an incidental motion is not a motion to Rescind or Amend Something Previously Adopted, but is instead an unclassified incidental motion (or incidental main motion) with similar characteristics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ann Rempel Posted February 11, 2014 at 10:12 PM Report Share Posted February 11, 2014 at 10:12 PM I recommend to all an article by Wm. J. Evans, "Provisos." The article was published in the National Parliamentarian, Vol. 57, 3rd Qtr, 1996. I think Mr. Evans covered provisos extremely well in this article, and it's one that I dig out to reread from time to time. Incidentally, NAP now sells a CD-ROM containing NPs, beginning the first one, and I am told that the CD-ROM is searchable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Honemann Posted February 11, 2014 at 10:22 PM Report Share Posted February 11, 2014 at 10:22 PM I recommend to all an article by Wm. J. Evans, "Provisos." The article was published in the National Parliamentarian, Vol. 57, 3rd Qtr, 1996. I think Mr. Evans covered provisos extremely well in this article, and it's one that I dig out to reread from time to time. Incidentally, NAP now sells a CD-ROM containing NPs, beginning the first one, and I am told that the CD-ROM is searchable. Well how about telling us if it answers George's question? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Honemann Posted February 12, 2014 at 02:09 PM Report Share Posted February 12, 2014 at 02:09 PM Yesterday evening, after some time had passed without hearing back from our good friend Ann Rempel, I decided to go off looking for her and finally discovered that she was busily engaged in an NAP Board meeting. I popped in for a while, and there she was offering amendments to something or other (no provisos embedded in the enacting words as far as I could see), so I decided that it would be best not to disturb her. Let's hope she visits us again sometime soon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ann Rempel Posted February 13, 2014 at 02:12 AM Report Share Posted February 13, 2014 at 02:12 AM A motion to amend the bylaws is presented with the proviso attached that the amendment shall not take effect until the 2015 annual meeting. The bylaw amendment is adopted with that proviso attached without further amendment. Can the society, prior to the 2015 annual meeting amend the proviso or rescind it? If so, what is the vote required? Does the answer change if the proviso was adopted as an incidental motion or an amendment to the enacting words of the motion? According to the Evans article, the vote and notice provisions will be the same as those required to amend the bylaws. The answer does not change if the proviso was adopted as an incidental motion or an amendment to the enacting words. Edited to correct typo and to emphasize that I really can spell "incidental" -- at least part of the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jstackpo Posted February 13, 2014 at 02:42 AM Report Share Posted February 13, 2014 at 02:42 AM All of which brings us into "Quacks like a duck, walks like a duck, &c." territory. If all the (unspecified in the book) SDCs for provisos are essentially the same as bylaws, why not just say, flat out, that a proviso is a temporary provision in the bylaws. Lot easer to explain things that way. Quack! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Honemann Posted February 13, 2014 at 11:39 AM Report Share Posted February 13, 2014 at 11:39 AM According to the Evans article, the vote and notice provisions will be the same as those required to amend the bylaws. The answer does not change if the proviso was adopted as an incidental motion or an amendment to the enacting words. Edited to correct typo and to emphasize that I really can spell "incidental" -- at least part of the time. Thank you very much for this information. It surprises me a bit, and so I guess I need to think some more about all this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Mervosh Posted February 13, 2014 at 01:48 PM Author Report Share Posted February 13, 2014 at 01:48 PM Ann Rempel was kind enough to email Mr. Evans' article on this subject to me. If you would like a copy, please send me a private message with your email address so that this thread doesn't get cluttered with requests. Thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Honemann Posted February 13, 2014 at 03:06 PM Report Share Posted February 13, 2014 at 03:06 PM The proviso may certainly be amended or rescinded. Regardless of how the proviso was adopted, I'd say it would have the same requirements as an amendment to the bylaws. I wanted to make sure I wasn't missing anything because I can't see how any other voting threshold would be proper. Well, you're both in good company. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J. J. Posted February 15, 2014 at 02:19 PM Report Share Posted February 15, 2014 at 02:19 PM A very long tiime ago, I was asked this question. I said provisos were like baby teeth. They will eventually "drop out" of the bylaws, but until then they are part of the bylaws. The person asking that question liked that answer. I am in the "joined at the hip" crowd. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jstackpo Posted February 17, 2014 at 12:31 PM Report Share Posted February 17, 2014 at 12:31 PM "Peep" rather than a mature "Quack", I suppose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulmcclintock Posted March 5, 2014 at 05:25 AM Report Share Posted March 5, 2014 at 05:25 AM > I recommend to all an article by Wm. J. Evans, "Provisos." The article was published in the National Parliamentarian, Vol. 57, 3rd Qtr, 1996. -- Ann Rempel > According to the Evans article, the vote and notice provisions will be the same as those required to amend the bylaws. The answer does not change if the proviso was adopted as an incidental motion or an amendment to the enacting words. -- Ann Rempel The NP's article's rational stems from the tinted page's footnote for Proviso. In the 11th edition, it is on tinted pages 22-23, with Class = M, S, or I7. Footnote 7 says: "See p. 597. This motion can be made as a main motion, as an amendment to enacting words, or as an incidental motion, and the same rules apply." Emphasis added.The NP article says:"In the case of a proviso originally made by way of a main motion, a motion to later amend the proviso is an amendment to a main motion. In the case of a proviso made by way of an amendment to the enacting motion, it became subsumed as a part of the main motion when it was agreed to and, subsequently, when that motion was adopted as amended, the proviso was part and parcel of the main motion. The same, then, is true of an incidental motion for a proviso since the "... same rules apply" - it merges into the main (enacting) motion as a condition of that enactment." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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