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Provisos - Amending or Rescinding One.


George Mervosh

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A motion to amend the bylaws is presented with the proviso attached that the amendment shall not take effect until the 2015 annual meeting.  The bylaw amendment is adopted with that proviso attached without further amendment.

 

Can the society, prior to the 2015 annual meeting amend the proviso or rescind it?  If so, what is the vote required? 

 

Does the answer change if the proviso was adopted as an incidental motion or an amendment to the enacting words of the motion?

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Does the answer change if the proviso was adopted as an incidental motion or an amendment to the enacting words of the motion?

 

I'm not sure what is meant by "an amendment to the enacting words of the motion" but it seems to me that the motion (which contains both the proviso and the changes to the bylaws) could be amended in the usual way. The proviso (part) can be amended up until it's implemented (and the bylaws can always be amended).

 

The proviso is not "attached" to the bylaws amendment. The proviso is part of the motion to amend the bylaws.

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I'm not sure what is meant by "an amendment to the enacting words of the motion"

 

"While the amendment is pending, a motion can be made to amend the enacting words of the motion to amend by adding a clause such as this: ". . . with the proviso that [or, ". . . provided, however, that"] this amendment shall not go into effect until after the close of this annual meeting." Or, while the amendment is pending, an incidental motion can be adopted that, in the event of the amendment's adoption, it shall not take effect until a specified time."  RONR (11th ed.), p. 597 emphasis added by me.

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A motion to amend the bylaws is presented with the proviso attached that the amendment shall not take effect until the 2015 annual meeting.  The bylaw amendment is adopted with that proviso attached without further amendment.

 

Can the society, prior to the 2015 annual meeting amend the proviso or rescind it?  If so, what is the vote required? 

 

Does the answer change if the proviso was adopted as an incidental motion or an amendment to the enacting words of the motion?

 

The proviso may certainly be amended or rescinded. Regardless of how the proviso was adopted, I'd say it would have the same requirements as an amendment to the bylaws.

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The proviso may certainly be amended or rescinded. Regardless of how the proviso was adopted, I'd say it would have the same requirements as an amendment to the bylaws.

 

I wanted to make sure I wasn't missing anything because I can't see how any other voting threshold would be proper.

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I wanted to make sure I wasn't missing anything because I can't see how any other voting threshold would be proper.

Agreed, particularly since a proviso actually outranks a bylaw, falling, I suppose, in an unidentified rules-space between the bylaws and a charter in the hierarchy of rules.

 

e.g., p. 560, lines 22-24.

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Agreed, particularly since a proviso actually outranks a bylaw, falling, I suppose, in an unidentified rules-space between the bylaws and a charter in the hierarchy of rules.

 

I wouldn't say that a proviso to the bylaws outranks the bylaws. Rather, it has the same rank as the bylaws. It takes precedence over other rules in the bylaws because of the specfic trumps general rule.

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The proviso may certainly be amended or rescinded. Regardless of how the proviso was adopted, I'd say it would have the same requirements as an amendment to the bylaws.

 

For the moment, let's say that the proviso is adopted by the adoption of an incidental motion. Can a motion to Amend or Rescind Something Previously Adopted be applied to anything adopted by such a motion?

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For the moment, let's say that the proviso is adopted by the adoption of an incidental motion. Can a motion to Amend or Rescind Something Previously Adopted be applied to anything adopted by such a motion?

 

While you wait for Josh, I considered posting this same question, but in my reading of RONR it seems the proviso and bylaw amendment are tied together at the hip and the adopted proviso only has continuing force by virtue of the fact the main motion was adopted.

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While you wait for Josh, I considered posting this same question, but in my reading of RONR it seems the proviso and bylaw amendment are tied together at the hip and the adopted proviso only has continuing force by virtue of the fact the main motion was adopted.

 

Perhaps so, but what about SDC 2 on page 305?

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Perhaps so, but what about SDC 2 on page 305?

 

I think I understand your point.  The keywords, I think, being " which was made or created at any time or times as the result of the adoption of one or more main motions."   That sounds problematic when the incidental motion is adopted separately.  But is it?  Is it not really granted its continuing force and effect status only as a result of the adoption of one or more main motions? 

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For the moment, let's say that the proviso is adopted by the adoption of an incidental motion. Can a motion to Amend or Rescind Something Previously Adopted be applied to anything adopted by such a motion?

 

It would seem not, so perhaps the motion to cancel or change a proviso adopted by an incidental motion is not a motion to Rescind or Amend Something Previously Adopted, but is instead an unclassified incidental motion (or incidental main motion) with similar characteristics.

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I recommend to all an article by Wm. J. Evans, "Provisos."  The article was published in the National Parliamentarian, Vol. 57, 3rd Qtr, 1996. I think Mr. Evans covered provisos extremely well in this article, and it's one that I dig out to reread from time to time.

 

Incidentally, NAP now sells a CD-ROM containing NPs, beginning the first one, and I am told that the CD-ROM is searchable.

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I recommend to all an article by Wm. J. Evans, "Provisos."  The article was published in the National Parliamentarian, Vol. 57, 3rd Qtr, 1996. I think Mr. Evans covered provisos extremely well in this article, and it's one that I dig out to reread from time to time.

 

Incidentally, NAP now sells a CD-ROM containing NPs, beginning the first one, and I am told that the CD-ROM is searchable.

 

Well how about telling us if it answers George's question? :)

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Yesterday evening, after some time had passed without hearing back from our good friend Ann Rempel, I decided to go off looking for her and finally discovered that she was busily engaged in an NAP Board meeting. I popped in for a while, and there she was offering amendments to something or other (no provisos embedded in the enacting words as far as I could see), so I decided that it would be best not to disturb her. :)

 

Let's hope she visits us again sometime soon.

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A motion to amend the bylaws is presented with the proviso attached that the amendment shall not take effect until the 2015 annual meeting.  The bylaw amendment is adopted with that proviso attached without further amendment.

 

Can the society, prior to the 2015 annual meeting amend the proviso or rescind it?  If so, what is the vote required? 

 

Does the answer change if the proviso was adopted as an incidental motion or an amendment to the enacting words of the motion?

 

According to the Evans article, the vote and notice provisions will be the same as those required to amend the bylaws. The answer does not change if the proviso was adopted as an incidental motion or an amendment to the enacting words.

 

Edited to correct typo and to emphasize that I really can spell "incidental" -- at least part of the time.

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All of which brings us into "Quacks like a duck, walks like a duck, &c." territory.

 

If all the (unspecified in the book) SDCs for provisos are essentially the same as bylaws, why not just say, flat out, that a proviso is a temporary provision in the bylaws. 

 

Lot easer to explain things that way.

 

Quack!

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According to the Evans article, the vote and notice provisions will be the same as those required to amend the bylaws. The answer does not change if the proviso was adopted as an incidental motion or an amendment to the enacting words.

 

Edited to correct typo and to emphasize that I really can spell "incidental" -- at least part of the time.

 

Thank you very much for this information. It surprises me a bit, and so I guess I need to think some more about all this. :)

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The proviso may certainly be amended or rescinded. Regardless of how the proviso was adopted, I'd say it would have the same requirements as an amendment to the bylaws.

 

 

I wanted to make sure I wasn't missing anything because I can't see how any other voting threshold would be proper.

 

Well, you're both in good company. :)

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  • 3 weeks later...

> I recommend to all an article by Wm. J. Evans, "Provisos."  The article was published in the National Parliamentarian, Vol. 57, 3rd Qtr, 1996. -- Ann Rempel

 

> According to the Evans article, the vote and notice provisions will be the same as those required to amend the bylaws. The answer does not change if the proviso was adopted as an incidental motion or an amendment to the enacting words. -- Ann Rempel

 

The NP's article's rational stems from the tinted page's footnote for Proviso.  In the 11th edition, it is on tinted pages 22-23, with Class = M, S, or I7.  Footnote 7 says: "See p. 597. This motion can be made as a main motion, as an amendment to enacting words, or as an incidental motion, and the same rules apply."  Emphasis added.

The NP article says:

"In the case of a proviso originally made by way of a main motion, a motion to later amend the proviso is an amendment to a main motion. In the case of a proviso made by way of an amendment to the enacting motion, it became subsumed as a part of the main motion when it was agreed to and, subsequently, when that motion was adopted as amended, the proviso was part and parcel of the main motion. The same, then, is true of an incidental motion for a proviso since the "... same rules apply" - it merges into the main (enacting) motion as a condition of that enactment."

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