Edgar Guest Posted June 5, 2015 at 07:03 PM Report Share Posted June 5, 2015 at 07:03 PM Lest Guest_Secretary think we're piling on here, I'm all in favor of using gender-neutral language whenever practical (e.g. firefighter instead of fireman). And I'm in favor of using "she" as the default third-person singular pronoun at least as often as "he". And, if push comes to shove, I'd reluctantly prefer "they" to "he/she". But in this instance, when we're talking about a particular individual, I'm afraid it's just silly not to refer to him or her according to his or her gender. P.S. I'm also on record as being opposed to "Madame Chairman". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Secretary Posted June 5, 2015 at 07:08 PM Report Share Posted June 5, 2015 at 07:08 PM Mr Brown, thank you for the background. I was attempting to work within the limits of English to provide a gender neutral pronoun for our President. Mr. Honemann and everyone, please substitute he/she for the word "they" above. I would do it but I am not able to edit my own posts. Mr. Novosielski, I suspect our parent group will not be amused either except perhaps by the length of RRNR infractions that can be done by a single officer and self-confessed by them. It does well to impune the President's credibility. The parent body weren't amused the last time I asked for advise, after I was commanded to rewrite minutes, either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgar Guest Posted June 5, 2015 at 07:10 PM Report Share Posted June 5, 2015 at 07:10 PM I was attempting to work within the limits of English to provide a gender neutral pronoun for our President. But (assuming your president isn't gender neutral) . . . why? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Secretary Posted June 5, 2015 at 07:28 PM Report Share Posted June 5, 2015 at 07:28 PM I believe in gender neutrality with respect to leadership positions unless gender is relevant to the discussion. Language is important and always moving to the masculine effectively disenfranchises those who are not male. YMMV. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgar Guest Posted June 5, 2015 at 07:43 PM Report Share Posted June 5, 2015 at 07:43 PM Language is important and always moving to the masculine effectively disenfranchises those who are not male. I couldn't agree more. Which is why I suggest using "she" at least as often as "he" when the gender is unknown. But you, presumably, know the gender of your president and it makes no sense to refer to her as "they". Or to refer to him as "they". Because the discussion then becomes more about the peculiar use of language instead of the issue at hand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Honemann Posted June 5, 2015 at 07:55 PM Report Share Posted June 5, 2015 at 07:55 PM Language is important and always moving to the masculine effectively disenfranchises those who are not male. YMMV. I couldn't agree more. Which is why I suggest using "she" at least as often as "he" when the gender is unknown. Disenfranchises? Is there to be no end to this butchering of the language? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgar Guest Posted June 5, 2015 at 08:10 PM Report Share Posted June 5, 2015 at 08:10 PM Disenfranchises? Is there to be no end to this butchering of the language? Well, I was agreeing that language is important and, yes, "disenfranchises" might not have been the best choice of words but, as the kids say, I understand where Guest_Secretary is coming from. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Secretary Posted June 5, 2015 at 08:11 PM Report Share Posted June 5, 2015 at 08:11 PM Until there is a neutral pronoun and gender equality we will continue to have these discussions even if they have drifted far from the original topic. You all are so much more amusing with which to banter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shmuel Gerber Posted June 7, 2015 at 02:26 AM Report Share Posted June 7, 2015 at 02:26 AM I hear many countries have had woman Prime Ministers and the USA even has a leading candidate for President who is a very competent woman. At this point, I don't think Carly Fiorina is generally considered a leading candidate for president. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Novosielski Posted June 12, 2015 at 02:57 PM Report Share Posted June 12, 2015 at 02:57 PM I believe in gender neutrality with respect to leadership positions unless gender is relevant to the discussion. Language is important and always moving to the masculine effectively disenfranchises those who are not male. YMMV. Language is important. In English, when the gender (if any) of a singular antecedent is unknown, the pronoun "he" or "him" is standard usage. That is common throughout RONR. I learned it in 4th grade. It is no more disenfranchising than the nonsensical use of gender specific pronouns for inanimate objects in French, German, and other languages. Actually, English is an almost entirely gender-neutral language, when compared with the vast majority of other languages. I'm thankful for that. It is one of the features of English that has made it the predominant world language. I'm not sure why they is becoming more prevalent in use as a singular neuter pronoun when we already have a perfectly good one: it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh Martin Posted June 13, 2015 at 08:36 PM Report Share Posted June 13, 2015 at 08:36 PM I'm not sure why they is becoming more prevalent in use as a singular neuter pronoun when we already have a perfectly good one: it.The use of "it" to refer to a person is generally considered to be extremely offensive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgar Guest Posted June 13, 2015 at 08:54 PM Report Share Posted June 13, 2015 at 08:54 PM In English, when the gender (if any) of a singular antecedent is unknown, the pronoun "he" or "him" is standard usage. That is common throughout RONR. I learned it in 4th grade.You're not in the 4th grade anymore. You're in the 21st century. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Honemann Posted June 13, 2015 at 09:39 PM Report Share Posted June 13, 2015 at 09:39 PM You're not in the 4th grade anymore. You're in the 21st century. Yes, and in this regard, things have gotten worse instead of better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ann Rempel Posted June 13, 2015 at 10:16 PM Report Share Posted June 13, 2015 at 10:16 PM Yes, and in this regard, things have gotten worse instead of better. Amen! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgar Guest Posted June 13, 2015 at 10:19 PM Report Share Posted June 13, 2015 at 10:19 PM Amen! Ah, the good ol' 19th century. Life was simpler then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shmuel Gerber Posted June 14, 2015 at 02:08 AM Report Share Posted June 14, 2015 at 02:08 AM Ah, the good ol' 19th century. Life was simpler then. Yes, because that was closer to the time when thou couldst easily tell the difference between singular and plural pronouns and their associated verbs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Novosielski Posted June 15, 2015 at 01:12 PM Report Share Posted June 15, 2015 at 01:12 PM The use of "it" to refer to a person is generally considered to be extremely offensive.I guess some people are never satisfied. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Secretary Posted June 15, 2015 at 10:25 PM Report Share Posted June 15, 2015 at 10:25 PM It is amusing that a discussion of he/she/it versus they is taking place entirely by men. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgar Guest Posted June 15, 2015 at 10:36 PM Report Share Posted June 15, 2015 at 10:36 PM It is amusing that a discussion of he/she/it versus they is taking place entirely by men. The Lost Boys are in desperate need of a Wendy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shmuel Gerber Posted June 15, 2015 at 10:41 PM Report Share Posted June 15, 2015 at 10:41 PM It is amusing that a discussion of he/she/it versus they is taking place entirely by men. Speak for yourself, but Ann Rempel is definitely a woman. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Secretary Posted June 18, 2015 at 06:29 PM Report Share Posted June 18, 2015 at 06:29 PM Ms Rempel I apologize for unintentionally changing your sex. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgar Guest Posted June 18, 2015 at 06:43 PM Report Share Posted June 18, 2015 at 06:43 PM Ms Rempel I apologize for unintentionally changing your sex. I think you can rest assured that you had no effect on Ms. Rempel's sex. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Honemann Posted June 18, 2015 at 06:48 PM Report Share Posted June 18, 2015 at 06:48 PM I think you can rest assured that you had no effect on Ms. Rempel's sex. And I'll bet she won't get all upset if you refer to her as Mrs. Rempel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgar Guest Posted June 18, 2015 at 07:22 PM Report Share Posted June 18, 2015 at 07:22 PM And I'll bet she won't get all upset if you refer to her as Mrs. Rempel. The fact that Ms. Rempel is, or was, married is none of my business and is completely irrelevant. As is the fact that Mr. Honemann is, or was, or isn't, or wasn't, married. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Honemann Posted June 18, 2015 at 07:29 PM Report Share Posted June 18, 2015 at 07:29 PM The fact that Ms. Rempel is, or was, married is none of my business and is completely irrelevant. I didn't say it was relevant, I said I'd bet she won't get all upset if you refer to her as Mrs. Rempel. Not too long ago we had a thread posted from our friend in Canada informing us that some lady in an assembly over which he was presiding went absolutely bonkers because "Ms." appears on page 49 of RONR. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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