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Guest Julie

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The Constitution & By-Laws of our organization specifies that after our annual election, "The immediate Past President although not elected, is a non-voting member of the Board, and shall
serve as such on the Board for a period of one (1) year only."  There is nothing specified that I can find about this person being allowed to make motions, but I have seen public evidence that this person is making motions at board meetings and has voted on their own motion.  Is there anything in RRO that says anything on this and what can be done if it's not permissable?

Thanks!

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Here's a sermon for Christmas morning:

IPP is a Bad Idea:

And here's some reasons why the position is a bad idea:

In my personal view, setting up an "official" Immediate Past President (IPP) position is not a particularly good idea.  The most telling argument is the real possibility of a close and bitter race for the presidency, with the current president running (for a second term) against an "outsider".  And the outsider - the "reform candidate", perhaps - wins but is still stuck with the thorn of the IPP on the Board in a position to snipe at the new president.  And perhaps attempt to undermine the new president's plans.  Not to mention vote against them.

If the erstwhile president is a "good guy" the new president can (usually, depending on the bylaws) appoint him to a pre-existing committee - or even have him chair one, which might put him on the Board - as the new president sees fit.  That way the IPP's experience and value can be put to good use, when needed, without the danger of setting up an adversarial situation which would require a bylaw amendment to get out of.

Here's some more reasons

1) The President resigns and wants nothing to do with the organization.
 
2) The President simply doesn't run for election again because he's had enough, and never shows up at a board meeting.
 
3) The President is booted out of office for being incompetent, or for something more nefarious.
 
4) The President dies.
 
5) The President resigns and moves (wants to help but isn't around).

6) Even worse is the bylaw assignment of the IPP to chair a committee - such as nominating.  Then he dies/quits/leaves town, &c.  You are then stuck with an unfillable (by definition) vacancy.

Note that except for item 4, the IPP may well be part of the quorum requirement for meetings, even though he never shows up.

 

Our suggestion is to amend your bylaws to eliminate the position.

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I agree that having an official position of Immediate Past President (IPP) is usually a bad idea for the reasons Dr. Stackpole stated.  I also agree that RONR does not address the subject of a "non voting member".

The subject of non-voting members comes up on this forum fairly often.  I'm going to disagree slightly with the other members who have responded in this thread.  Although it is true that your bylaws should specify exactly what rights this "non voting" board member has and it is up to your organization to interpret its own bylaws, most of us who post regularly on here generally take the position that if the bylaws state that only the right to vote is denied to the member, then he still has all other rights of membership including the right to speak in debate and to make motions.  That is certainly my position.  To me, if he is a member, he has all rights of membership (as a board member) except the one that is specifically denied, i.e., the right to vote.

Ultimately, however, since they are your bylaws, your organization will have to interpret them and decide what rights this non voting member has.  It's what your members think that counts, not what we on the forum think.  If this has become an issue, you should amend your bylaws to specify just what rights the IPP does and does not have.  Or do as Dr. Stackpole suggests and do away with the "position". 

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>>   Is there anything in [Robert's Rules] that says anything on this, and what can be done if it's not permissible?

 

No, Robert's Rules has no rules for "immediate past president."

***

In general, "If a rule takes away Right X1, then Rights X2, X3, ..., Xn, remain."

Ponder this:

• One of the rights of membership is "To speak in debate".

I therefore pose the question to you:

Q. "If the 'right-to-vote' is taken away, then is 'the right to speak in debate' likewise taken away?"

(If it were so, then what is the meaning of "Mr. X is a non-voting member of the board", where Mr. cannot speak, cannot make motions, and cannot vote?" -- What is Mr. X doing at all inside a board meeting, if his input to the board's business drops to absolute zero?)

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19 hours ago, jstackpo said:

Also any details about what a "non-voting member" can and cannot do would also have to be in your bylaws. In RONR-land one is either a "member" with all the rights of membership or just not a member at all.

That's true, but I think it's highly likely that one of the things a non-voting member cannot do is vote.

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Thanks.  Our recent election was a rather contested one, pretty nasty publicly.  The incoming President won by a narrow margin, the past President still controls some of the Board members, enough to maintain control, which shows the wisdom of your comments of having an IPP not a good idea.  I appreciate your comments.  Thank you.

 

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4 hours ago, Guest Julie said:

Thanks.  Our recent election was a rather contested one, pretty nasty publicly.  The incoming President won by a narrow margin, the past President still controls some of the Board members, enough to maintain control, which shows the wisdom of your comments of having an IPP not a good idea.  I appreciate your comments.  Thank you.

 

"Having" an IPP is not a problem (since almost all organizations, at one time or other, have one. The "problem" is giving the IPP an office, power, etc.

if, as you stated in the OP, the IPP is actually voting (and apparently being allowed to do so) - that seems very improper.

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If the IPP controls the board by, say, using Jedi mind control, or just by being friends with members and saying "I, and Ben Franklin, would appreciate if you would vote this way," or by being frenemies with members and saying "your wife and children would certainly appreciate if you voted this way and they weren't drowned in that lovely pool I had installed in your backyard last year," these aren't solvable by eliminating the IPP position (they also aren't clearly parliamentary issues, although there may be some legal concerns).  If the IPP is controlling close votes by their vote, then it shows the wisdom of not having an IPP position, but it also means your organization isn't following its bylaws - the wisdom of having such a position aside, the position you describe is non-voting.  If the person is voting, that can be fixed even without eliminating the position, just by saying "you can't vote, your position is non-voting, see, it says it right there in the bylaws."

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  • 2 weeks later...

Past President,

We had a VP who was elected one time, and over the next 3 years no one ran against him. The last 3 months before the end of this last year, the President went to management and the Vice President moved to President.  Elections in December the VP ran for VP again and Lost.  As he was never elected president, and only served for 3 months as a fill in President is he a IPP?

In our Chapter by laws it states:

I also found this on our State association web site, however, this is Not in our chapter bylaws.

Section 2. Executive Board
: The elected officers designated in Section 1, plus the Immediate Past President, shall Inconstitute the Executive Board of this Chapter. To be eligible, the Past Presidentmust have completed at least one full term
in office as Chapter President.(Note: In the above language, the term
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