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Quorum In This Scenario


Guest ParliEnthusiast

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Guest ParliEnthusiast

The bylaws of our organization state that "A majority of the registered voting delegates for the PA-TSA state conference shall constitute a quorum". The bylaws can be seen in full here. At a recent meeting, there were not enough voting delegates to constitute a majority. However, there are 8 officer positions (discussed in the bylaws) and the officers (with the exception of the president) have voting power. Do the officers then count as registered voting delegates and therefore are counted in determining a quorum? If they do, then there would have been a quorum at the meeting.

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Guest ParliEnthusiast

One item in the bylaws that may be of help is Article VI. Section 2. (I quoted Article VI. Section3. in the previous post) which states that "Each chapter will be entitled to two (2) voting delegates, whom will each have one (1) vote. Each PATSA state officer will be entitled to one (1) vote". The term voting delegate is used only in regard to 2 delegates given to each chapter.

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I agree with Dr. Stackpole's response, but the way I read guest ParliEnthusiast's question, he is asking if the officers who are registered at the conference should be considered to be "voting delegates".  The bylaws say the officers each have one vote, but the bylaws don't explicitly characterize them as "delegates".

I think this is ultimately a question of bylaws interpretation, something we cannot do on this forum.  Each society must interpret its own bylaws. The bylaws do seem ambiguous on whether officers in attendance are considered "voting delegates".  I'm afraid that guest ParliEnthusiast's organization must answer that question for itself.  If someone makes a point of order regarding whether a quorum is not present, the chair will rule on the point of order.  That ruling can be appealed to the assembly.  The decision of the assembly is final.  I suggest that the troublesome bylaw provision be amended to clarify whether officers who register at the conference are also considered "voting delegates".  I also note that I did not see anything in the bylaws about how the delegates are selected. I also don't see where the bylaws provide that the president does not have voting power.  Under RONR the presiding officer, if a member, does have the right to vote unless that right is prohibited by the bylaws. RONR says that he should not vote, not that he cannot vote. 

But, what I said in the paragraph immediately above about appealing from the ruling of the chair regarding the presence or absence of a quorum raises another question:  How is it determined whether a quorum is present in order for the ruling of the chair to be appealed?  Can an assembly of less than a quorum decide an appeal?   For example, assume the chair finds that a quorum is present.   A delegate makes a point of order that a quorum is not present because officers cannot be included as delegates.  If the assembly votes to overrule the president, by virtue of that vote the assembly is saying "We do NOT have quorum".  So, if there is not a quorum (by the assembly's own determination), how can the ruling of the chair that a quorum is present be overruled?    RONR seems to be silent on that point.

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Guest ParliEnthusiast
8 hours ago, jstackpo said:

Check page 21, line 23ff (and other locations: see the index under "quorum, convention").  It is the number of registered delegates, not the total number of possible delegates, that is the denominator for the majority calculation for any particular meeting during the convention.

Could you please elaborate? How does this affect whether or not the officers are counted as delegates. Also, would it then be the number of registered delegates present, not the number of total possible delegates present, that is the numerator for the majority calculation for any particular meeting. As an aside, our meetings, despite the format that echoes conventions are actually considered annual meetings I believe as they are part of an organized society who meets on a regularly scheduled date for the annual meeting.

5 hours ago, Richard Brown said:

I agree with Dr. Stackpole's response, but the way I read guest ParliEnthusiast's question, he is asking if the officers who are registered at the conference should be considered to be "voting delegates".  The bylaws say the officers each have one vote, but the bylaws don't explicitly characterize them as "delegates".

I think this is ultimately a question of bylaws interpretation, something we cannot do on this forum.  Each society must interpret its own bylaws. The bylaws do seem ambiguous on whether officers in attendance are considered "voting delegates".  I'm afraid that guest ParliEnthusiast's organization must answer that question for itself.  If someone makes a point of order regarding whether a quorum is not present, the chair will rule on the point of order.  That ruling can be appealed to the assembly.  The decision of the assembly is final.  I suggest that the troublesome bylaw provision be amended to clarify whether officers who register at the conference are also considered "voting delegates".  I also note that I did not see anything in the bylaws about how the delegates are selected. I also don't see where the bylaws provide that the president does not have voting power.  Under RONR the presiding officer, if a member, does have the right to vote unless that right is prohibited by the bylaws. RONR says that he should not vote, not that he cannot vote. 

But, what I said in the paragraph immediately above about appealing from the ruling of the chair regarding the presence or absence of a quorum raises another question:  How is it determined whether a quorum is present in order for the ruling of the chair to be appealed?  Can an assembly of less than a quorum decide an appeal?   For example, assume the chair finds that a quorum is present.   A delegate makes a point of order that a quorum is not present because officers cannot be included as delegates.  If the assembly votes to overrule the president, by virtue of that vote the assembly is saying "We do NOT have quorum".  So, if there is not a quorum (by the assembly's own determination), how can the ruling of the chair that a quorum is present be overruled?    RONR seems to be silent on that point.

That is rather surprising how RONR is ambiguous on this matter. Perhaps it ought to be addressed in the 12th edition :). However, what about the scenario in which case the meeting already occurred? If it was found that a quorum was not present, does that nullify any action done at the meeting? It is a custom of the organization that the president not vote except in a tie, even by ballot, so I suppose that is irrelevant as RONR supersedes customs. The selection method of delegates is done at the discretion of the individual chapters who select them and them report them to the overall state organization.

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Guest Who's Coming to Dinner

Robert's Rules have no idea what a "registered voting delegate" is. It's up to the organization to decide if a PATSA State Officer counts as a registered voting delegate.

As to Mr. Brown's hypo, I think the quorum is assumed to be present until the question of its absence is settled. Thus the assembly has the power to appeal the chair's ruling. See RONR (11th ed.), p.349, ll. 21-28 for an example of appeal after a point has been raised that the quorum is absent.

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2 hours ago, Guest ParliEnthusiast said:

Could you please elaborate? How does this affect whether or not the officers are counted as delegates. Also, would it then be the number of registered delegates present, not the number of total possible delegates present, that is the numerator for the majority calculation for any particular meeting.

Are officers delegates?  As noted by Guest Who... that can only be answered by your bylaws and/or your associations interpretation of any ambiguities.  See p. 588ff.

Denominator is the total number of registered delegates.  If lots of them are out at the bar, you may not have enough of them  --  a majority of the registered delegates  --  in the actual meeting to achieve the quorum threshold.  If so close the bar and fetch them back to the meeting.

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15 hours ago, Richard Brown said:

But, what I said in the paragraph immediately above about appealing from the ruling of the chair regarding the presence or absence of a quorum raises another question:  How is it determined whether a quorum is present in order for the ruling of the chair to be appealed?  Can an assembly of less than a quorum decide an appeal?   For example, assume the chair finds that a quorum is present.   A delegate makes a point of order that a quorum is not present because officers cannot be included as delegates.  If the assembly votes to overrule the president, by virtue of that vote the assembly is saying "We do NOT have quorum".  So, if there is not a quorum (by the assembly's own determination), how can the ruling of the chair that a quorum is present be overruled?    RONR seems to be silent on that point.

An assembly which does not have a quorum is permitted to consider incidental motions "related to the conduct of the meeting while it remains without a quorum." 

It seems to me that an appeal regarding the question of whether a quorum is present is such a motion.

9 hours ago, Guest ParliEnthusiast said:

Could you please elaborate? How does this affect whether or not the officers are counted as delegates. Also, would it then be the number of registered delegates present, not the number of total possible delegates present, that is the numerator for the majority calculation for any particular meeting. As an aside, our meetings, despite the format that echoes conventions are actually considered annual meetings I believe as they are part of an organized society who meets on a regularly scheduled date for the annual meeting.

For the sake of simplicity (and setting aside the officers for a moment), suppose there are 20 chapters, and each chapter is entitled to five delegates. So there could potentially be 100 delegates. However, not every chapter actually sends all five delegates, and some delegates get sick and don't go to the convention, and so on, so there are ultimately only 80 delegates who register with the credentials committee. A majority of the total possible delegates is 51. But a majority of the registered delegates is 41.

This has nothing to do with whether the officers are considered delegates.

9 hours ago, Guest ParliEnthusiast said:

That is rather surprising how RONR is ambiguous on this matter. Perhaps it ought to be addressed in the 12th edition :). However, what about the scenario in which case the meeting already occurred? If it was found that a quorum was not present, does that nullify any action done at the meeting?

If the assembly determines that there is clear and convincing proof that a quorum was not present, then yes, any action that was taken is null and void.

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