J. J.

Recapitulation

36 posts in this topic

With all due respect, J.J., the notion that there can be a recount in the situation you have described is simply ludicrous. As previously noted, there is nothing to recount.

The purpose of a recount is "to ensure that the count is precisely correct as reported" (RONR, 11th ed., p. 410, ll. 33-35). It's done in order to make sure that, when adding up the votes cast, no mathematical error was made.

When a recount is ordered of a counted, rising vote, what are recounted "to ensure that the count is precisely correct as reported" are the tellers' tabulations. These are the tellers' tally sheets referred to on page 411, lines 19-21, which, in order to have any recount at all, must have been retained pursuant to the rules on pages 418-19. The purpose of the recount is simply to check the correctness of the tellers' mathematics; to ensure that the sums arrived at when adding up the numbers reflected on the tally sheets were correct. 

As I understand it, in the situation you described the chair himself counted a standing vote (as ordered by the assembly). He counted 64 in favor and 33 against, and then announced that "the ayes have it" and that the motion had been adopted. The count arrived at (64 in favor and 33 against) was properly reported in the minutes, but there is nothing available to recount to ensure that there were, in fact, a total of 64 votes in favor, or that there were, in fact, a total of 33 votes against, as reported by the chair.

Now, I'm well aware of the fact that, in your scenario, the motion declared to have been adopted required a two-thirds vote for its adoption, and so the chair erred in announcing that "the ayes have it" and that the motion had been adopted. It is not clear, from the facts as described, whether the error was in thinking that only a majority vote was required or that 64 is two thirds of 97, but none of this is relevant to the question asked. The answer to the question originally asked is obviously "no". Neither a recapitulation (applicable only to roll-call votes) nor a recount can be ordered. There is nothing to recount.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 hours ago, J. J. said:

So the recorded votes of how people voted, in the minutes, would be subject to a recount, but the recorded count could not be subject to a recount.

I am back to having that problem.

I don't understand the problem. If there is a record of how each individual member voted, those votes can be counted. If the minutes simply state the total number of votes on each side, there isn't anything to count.

12 hours ago, J. J. said:

 Perhaps it is related to this problem.  Without asking the assembly to vote twice on the same question by the same method, how do get a recount on a counted standing vote? 

If tally sheets are taken and securely preserved, these may be recounted. It is rather unlikely that this will be done in practice, however, unless perhaps if the assembly is especially large.

12 hours ago, J. J. said:

Well, because p. 445, l. 3 says there is something to recount, at least in an election.

On a standing vote where the is announced, in non-election cases, the society cannot get a recount, without suspending the rules.  The reason is that they would be vote twice on the same question by the same method.  The society could chose to vote by a different method, or could suspend the rules, as you noted.

There is something to count if tally sheets are used. If not, there is nothing to count. Whether the question is on an election has nothing to do with it.

9 hours ago, J. J. said:

Why would the secretary writing down the count be different that a teller writing down the count?  That is not a rhetorical question.

Because tally sheets do not simply include the totals. They include tally marks, and those tally marks can be counted.

The rule is that you can't have a recount unless there is something to count. Simply looking at the totals isn't counting.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Daniel H. Honemann said:

 

When a recount is ordered of a counted, rising vote, what are recounted "to ensure that the count is precisely correct as reported" are the tellers' tabulations. These are the tellers' tally sheets referred to on page 411, lines 19-21, which, in order to have any recount at all, must have been retained pursuant to the rules on pages 418-19. The purpose of the recount is simply to check the correctness of the tellers' mathematics; to ensure that the sums arrived at when adding up the numbers reflected on the tally sheets were correct. 

 

 

 

I'm not in a agreement that there would be nothing to recount, but I will come back to that.

If the sole purpose of a recount is to determine if the vote totals were correct, how can than the incorrect result that the chair announce be corrected by this motion.

For example, on a roll call vote, the chair announced the result 64 in favor and 33 against, an then declared the motion adopted.  On a recount, the votes taken will not change.  The only record is what the secretary wrote down. 

I can understand that if a roll call can be recounted, and the count is different, that result be changed based on that recount.  My problem is that, when the count is the same, and there is an error in the announcement, it seems that the result would stand as well, if a recount can only make sure that the count is correct.

As to there being nothing to recount on a counted vote, there is a record, the secretary's notes.   On a roll call, there is a record, the secretary's notes.

I'm trying to see where to draw a line ,as it were, between the secretary's record is the case of a roll call and the secretary's record in the case of a counted vote.  

Perhaps a recount cannot "fix" an improper announcement from the chair? 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, Josh Martin said:

Because tally sheets do not simply include the totals. They include tally marks, and those tally marks can be counted.

The rule is that you can't have a recount unless there is something to count. Simply looking at the totals isn't counting.

In a counted standing vote, with tellers, there would be numbers, not marks.  A teller would count one row, and if recording them, in writing would just right down the number of people voting yes, then moving to the next row.   That would be repeated by the no votes.  He may just report the number, orally, to the president as he is taking the count or keep a running total in his mind and report the total number of votes.  Even if he would give a tellers report in writing, it might be something as simple as "64 yes, 33 no."

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
24 minutes ago, J. J. said:

Perhaps a recount cannot "fix" an improper announcement from the chair? 

If the chair originally had stated there are 64 yes and 33 no votes, AND stated - "There are 2/3 in the the affirmative and the motion is adopted" and a recount is ordered, and the count remains unchanged, he can't say, after reporting the recount, that "There are less than 2/3 in the affirmative and the motion is not adopted"?  

I'd like to explore this in a separate thread though.

Edited by George Mervosh

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, George Mervosh said:

If the chair originally had stated there are 64 yes and 33 no votes, AND stated - "There are 2/3 in the the affirmative and the motion is adopted" and a recount is ordered, and the count remains unchanged, he can't say, after reporting the recount, that "There are less than 2/3 in the affirmative and the motion is not adopted"?  

I'd like to explore this in a separate thread though.

Well, why not read through this one first.

If you go through it carefully, paying close attention, I suppose we won't hear back from you again until some time next week. :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, George Mervosh said:

If the chair originally had stated there are 64 yes and 33 no votes, AND stated - "There are 2/3 in the the affirmative and the motion is adopted" and a recount is ordered, and the count remains unchanged, he can't say, after reporting the recount, that "There are less than 2/3 in the affirmative and the motion is not adopted"?  

I'd like to explore this in a separate thread though.

I would welcome it.

I can construct an argument, that I think works, that a recount cannot change an improper announcement, though some improper announcements may create a breach of a continuing nature and be dealt with via point of order. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, J. J. said:

In a counted standing vote, with tellers, there would be numbers, not marks.  A teller would count one row, and if recording them, in writing would just right down the number of people voting yes, then moving to the next row.   That would be repeated by the no votes.  He may just report the number, orally, to the president as he is taking the count or keep a running total in his mind and report the total number of votes.  Even if he would give a tellers report in writing, it might be something as simple as "64 yes, 33 no."

I think the scenario being contemplated is an assembly large enough to warrant multiple tellers, each maintaining a separate count of a section of the assembly, and then summing the totals at the end.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Alexis Hunt said:

I think the scenario being contemplated is an assembly large enough to warrant multiple tellers, each maintaining a separate count of a section of the assembly, and then summing the totals at the end.

 

I has seen, and presided over, assemblies where there have been more than 100 votes, some of whom carried proxies.  No tellers were needed. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
39 minutes ago, Alexis Hunt said:

I've been to a convention with thousands, and there multiple tellers were definitely required.

In this case, there are fewer than 100 voters and they are not.  A total of 97 votes were cast. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
You are commenting as a guest. If you have an account, please sign in.
Reply to this topic...

×   You have pasted content with formatting.   Remove formatting

  Only 75 emoticons maximum are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

Loading...