Which vote counts?

[fitterextreme]

A wage allocation meeting was held where amounts were being allocated to different things. The first vote sent money to an area that the second vote did not. I want to determine whether the first vote that was taken properly counted because the second vote should have never happened.

Our by-laws require only a simple majority for this vote to pass and the election committee stopped the announcement that the vote had passed telling me that 2/3 majority was required. Another motion was made that did pass, but this motion wouldn't have been brought forward if the first motion would have been determined to be approved.

Which approved motions counts, the original motion that would have passed had we never voted on another motion, the second motion...or neither motion?

[Robert B Fish]

It sounds like your organization operates with specialized rules and we don't know what they are. You should begin by asking why the chairman feels he's correct. He should point to RONR or your bylaws. Then, you might be able to better frame your question to RONR issues.

-Bob

[fitterextreme]

It sounds like your organization operates with specialized rules and we don't know what they are. You should begin by asking why the chairman feels he's correct. He should point to RONR or your bylaws. Then, you might be able to better frame your question to RONR issues.

-Bob

Thank you for posting Bob. I don't think we are operating under any rules that are specialized but we are confused about how to address the question on how our wage package should be allocated after their were two votes held when there should never have been the opportunity for a second motion to be presented. I am the chairman and after the first motion failed because we thought it needed a 2/3 majority another motion was passed. Now that we know that 2/3 was not needed to pass the first motion, can the approval of the second motion be ruled out of order and the results of the vote passing the first motion now be recognized and upheld?

[hmtcastle]

-Bob

You might want to take advantage of the "signature" feature of this enhanced forum by making "-Bob" your permanent signature.

[fitterextreme]

Question: A wage allocation meeting was held where amounts were being allocated to different things. The first vote sent money to an area that the second vote did not. I want to determine whether the first vote that was taken properly counted because the second vote should have never happened.

Our by-laws require only a simple majority for this vote to pass and the election committee stopped the announcement that the vote had passed telling me that 2/3 majority was required. Another motion was made that did pass, but this motion wouldn't have been brought forward if the first motion would have been determined to be approved.

Which approved motions counts, the original motion that would have passed had we never voted on another motion, the second motion...or neither motion?

Answer:It sounds like your organization operates with specialized rules and we don't know what they are. You should begin by asking why the chairman feels he's correct. He should point to RONR or your bylaws. Then, you might be able to better frame your question to RONR issues.

-Bob

Reply/Question: Thank you for posting Bob. I don't think we are operating under any rules that are specialized but we are confused about how to address the question on how our wage package should be allocated after their were two votes held when there should never have been the opportunity for a second motion to be presented. I am the chairman and after the first motion failed because we thought it needed a 2/3 majority another motion was passed. Now that we know that 2/3 was not needed to pass the first motion, can the approval of the second motion be ruled out of order and the results of the vote passing the first motion now be recognized and upheld?

[hmtcastle]

Now that we know that 2/3 was not needed to pass the first motion, can the approval of the second motion be ruled out of order and the results of the vote passing the first motion now be recognized and upheld?

No. It's too late.

But you may be able to rescind, or otherwise amend, the adopted motion. Nothing is carved in stone.

[fitterextreme]

No. It's too late.

But you may be able to rescind, or otherwise amend, the adopted motion. Nothing is carved in stone.

Thank you, we have another meeting tonight where this subject will be addressed in I'm sure a very animated fashion. The meeting these events took place was a special called meeting, our next regular meeting is tonight where we would like to resolve the issue but wage allocations must be special called meetings. Can you direct me to a rule that will allow me to rescind or amend the last motion that was made in error at the special called meeting?

[Dan Honemann]

Can you direct me to a rule that will allow me to rescind or amend the last motion that was made in error at the special called meeting?

There is no rule that will allow you to rescind or amend anything. Look at RONR, 10th ed., Section 35.

[Kim Goldsworthy]

Our by-laws require only a simple majority for this vote to pass.

By the way, the above is a customized rule, since RONR does not require a majority vote for certain things.

If your bylaws do not specify those "certain things", then you are operating under rules other than Robert's Rules of Order.

Therefore, this will be a confounding variable in any post which mentions "two thirds vote".

Beware.

Like so:

I am the chairman and after the first motion failed because we thought it needed a 2/3 majority another motion was passed.

And like so:

Now that we know that 2/3 was not needed to pass the first motion, can the approval of the second motion be ruled out of order and the results of the vote passing the first motion now be recognized and upheld?

[fitterextreme]

By the way, the above is a customized rule, since RONR does not require a majority vote for certain things.

If your bylaws do not specify those "certain things", then you are operating under rules other than Robert's Rules of Order.

Therefore, this will be a confounding variable in any post which mentions "two thirds vote".

Beware.

Like so:

And like so:

Thank you Kim. I'll try to do it right-I'm appreciating all of the help. Our by-laws do specify the "certain things" and in this case part of the motion was a dues increase which is the "certain thing" we thought required the two thirds vote. It did not, only a majority vote by secret ballot at a special called meeting. To clarify-am I to understand that the members who voted on the first motion that should have passed with a majority vote will now be unrecognized due to the results of the second motion that was passed?

[fitterextreme]

There is no rule that will allow you to rescind or amend anything. Look at RONR, 10th ed., Section 35.

Yes, thank you. I meant the membership present with me presiding. To clarify-am I to understand that the members who voted on the first motion that should have passed with a majority vote will now be unrecognized due to the results of the second motion that was passed?

[hmtcastle]

am I to understand that the members who voted on the first motion that should have passed with a majority vote will now be unrecognized due to the results of the second motion that was passed?

What do you mean by "unrecognized"?

[fitterextreme]

What do you mean by "unrecognized"?

The motion they voted in favor of should have passed without a second motion ever having the opportunity to be presented and voted upon.

[Dan Honemann]

The motion they voted in favor of should have passed without a second motion ever having the opportunity to be presented and voted upon.

For heavens sake, forget it! The second motion was adopted.

[fitterextreme]

For heavens sake, forget it! The second motion was adopted.

OK, thank you all for your help.

[Guest buckpasser]

I dont get it, why should he drop the matter? If the first motion passed, then it passed. Isnt that a factual matter? From the poster's account it sounds like all the votes were cast and tallied and they were about to make an announcement when someone said "oh wait it needs 2/3 it doesnt pass." In fact, if it got the requisite number it already has passed, any announcement notwithstanding.

Couldnt this person simply bring this up at the next meeting when the last meetings minutes were/are adopted? He would explain that the motion really did pass,he could ask the person tallying the votes if there was a majority. The minutes are voted on by majority of the body so then it's up to that body to decide if they agree on the minutes.

I realize they already had the latest meeting a few days ago so Im not sure about the situation now. Can minutes be corrected?

[J. J.]

The chair announced the result (incorrectly), but still announced it. The announcement violated nothing on p. 244; no one raised a point of order.

The second vote stands.

[hmtcastle]

In fact, if it got the requisite number it already has passed, any announcement notwithstanding.

Ah, but it's the "announcement" that counts, and that (incorrect) declaration, that the motion was lost, had to be challenged on the spot or else it's too late. That's the rule.

[Josh Martin]

I dont get it, why should he drop the matter?

He doesn't have to drop it but it the only way to "fix" it now would be to rescind or amend the second motion. (RONR, 10th ed., pgs. 293-299) It's too late for a Point of Order. (RONR, 10th ed., pg. 243, lines 19-20; pg. 243, line 32 - pg. 244, line 3; Official Interpretation 2006-18)

If the first motion passed, then it passed. Isnt that a factual matter?

It is a fact that the motion failed, because the chair ruled mistakenly on a question of order (that a 2/3 vote was required, and therefore declared the motion failed).

In fact, if it got the requisite number it already has passed, any announcement notwithstanding.

That is incorrect. It is the chair's declaration of the motion that is adopted or lost that completes the disposition of the motion. (RONR, 10th ed., pg. 46, line 24) The chair's declaration is not just for information.

Couldnt this person simply bring this up at the next meeting when the last meetings minutes were/are adopted? He would explain that the motion really did pass, he could ask the person tallying the votes if there was a majority.

He could bring it up, but he would be wrong about the motion passing. If such a Point of Order is raised, the chair should note that his announcement was in error, but that the motion was defeated.

The minutes are voted on by majority of the body so then it's up to that body to decide if they agree on the minutes.

Yes, but the minutes are not the place to fix errors in procedure. The minutes are a record of what happened, even if what happened was improper. At this point, the only way to change the action taken is to rescind or amend the second motion.

Can minutes be corrected?

They can be (FAQ #16), but there is nothing to correct. The minutes accurately record what happened. It is the second motion which needs to be changed if the assembly wants to change things. There's nothing wrong with the minutes.

[Guest buckpasser]

Okay that is all very complete and very concise. Thanks for the prompt response.