"Abstensions" and Electronic Voting

[sunrider]

Our bylaws do allow for electronic vote by email. We have a 25 member board and a quorum of 16.

A few weeks ago there were two votes by email and the secretary, who was the one tallying the responses, got 12 yes votes on both - everyone else failed to respond and there weren't any "no" votes. She (NOT the President) gave results as the motions passing in an email, but I do not think they did.

We didn't even get a response equaling our quorum (and I don't even know if quorum comes into play with an electronic vote). But 12 of 25 isn't even a simple majority.

Am I interpreting this correctly? Do we have to have a minimum number of responses when voting electornically, like an "e-quorum"?

[Robert B Fish]

Our bylaws do allow for electronic vote by email. We have a 25 member board and a quorum of 16.

A few weeks ago there were two votes by email and the secretary, who was the one tallying the responses, got 12 yes votes on both - everyone else failed to respond and there weren't any "no" votes. She (NOT the President) gave results as the motions passing in an email, but I do not think they did.

We didn't even get a response equaling our quorum (and I don't even know if quorum comes into play with an electronic vote). But 12 of 25 isn't even a simple majority.

Am I interpreting this correctly? Do we have to have a minimum number of responses when voting electornically, like an "e-quorum"?

Unless your bylaws allow for any type of voting by absentee voting (such as e-mail, fax, proxy, etc.) you cannot do it and any such "meeting" or action is null and void.

-Bob

[hmtcastle]

Am I interpreting this correctly? Do we have to have a minimum number of responses when voting electornically, like an "e-quorum"?

I'm afraid you've strayed beyond the protective umbrella of RONR.

[hmtcastle]

Our bylaws do allow for electronic vote by email.

Unless your bylaws allow for any type of voting by absentee voting (such as e-mail, fax, proxy, etc.) you cannot do it and any such "meeting" or action is null and void.

[Guest dan]

Our bylaws do allow for electronic vote by email. We have a 25 member board and a quorum of 16.

A few weeks ago there were two votes by email and the secretary, who was the one tallying the responses, got 12 yes votes on both - everyone else failed to respond and there weren't any "no" votes. She (NOT the President) gave results as the motions passing in an email, but I do not think they did.

We didn't even get a response equaling our quorum (and I don't even know if quorum comes into play with an electronic vote). But 12 of 25 isn't even a simple majority.

Am I interpreting this correctly? Do we have to have a minimum number of responses when voting electornically, like an "e-quorum"?

The answer to your question should be addressed in your own rules and procedures. Since your bylaws allow for such a vote, it seems to me the issue is the establishment of a "quorum". Suppose you had this vote in person, and 12 voted yes and nobody voted no. If there was a quorum, it would pass. In person, there is no requirement to positively note an abstention - just don't vote either way. How is that different than what happened?

[sunrider]

Unless your bylaws allow for any type of voting by absentee voting (such as e-mail, fax, proxy, etc.) you cannot do it and any such "meeting" or action is null and void.

-Bob

OK, for future's sake and so I understand this, let's assume our bylaws allow for absentee voting and can utilize voting by mail. I have just reviewed RR On Line regarding voting by mail. I'm translating this as it is allowed, but cannot be a secret ballot. If by hardcopy mail a signature/name must be included with a yes/no vote. And we have not problem with that - it's logical.

Is a passing motion/amendment/whatever simply determined by the total number of Yes votes compared to current membership?

It's not by roll call, so you are not calling on each member in order to get a vote response by mail. Getting 100% response by your membership would be near impossible, practically speaking.

I'm afraid you've strayed beyond the protective umbrella of RONR.

I don't think so. RROO does specify voting by mail, as linked above. My question speaks to determining methods for judging something pass or fail.

[hmtcastle]

I have just reviewed RR On Line regarding voting by mail. I'm translating this as it is allowed, but cannot be a secret ballot.

I'd say that's an inaccurate translation of the 1915 edition.

[sunrider]

I'd say that's an inaccurate translation of the 1915 edition.

Well, it's the only version I was finding with detail on line in the limited time during my meeting that I can find.

Does the current edition no longer allow voting by mail?

[hmtcastle]

Does the current edition no longer allow voting by mail?

The current edition doesn't and the edition you cited didn't.

What both editions say is that if you want to permit absentee voting (of which voting by mail is one example) you have to put it in your bylaws. The RONR default is that you have to be present (physically, in person) to vote.

[sunrider]

The current edition doesn't and the edition you cited didn't.

What both editions say is that if you want to permit absentee voting (of which voting by mail is one example) you have to put it in your bylaws. The RONR default is that you have to be present (physically, in person) to vote.

And as I said earlier, let's assume the bylaws permit absentee voting, and mail is an option.

Given those stipulations, how does one determine passing/failing on a motion/amendment, whatever, when you don't get 100% to respond with either a yea or nay vote?

[hmtcastle]

And as I said earlier, let's assume the bylaws permit absentee voting, and mail is an option.

Given those stipulations, how does one determine passing/failing on a motion/amendment, whatever, when you don't get 100% to respond with either a yea or nay vote?

There is nothing in RONR that requires a 100% response. If a majority vote is required, a vote of 1-0 will do the trick. If a two-thirds vote is required, a vote of 1-0 will do the trick.

Your question is really about how to establish the presence of a quorum when no members are present. And, as I said earlier, that's beyond the scope of RONR.

[J. J.]

I'd say that's an inaccurate translation of the 1915 edition.

I think it is an inaccurate translation of the site quoted, which says no.

[Kim Goldsworthy]

I have just reviewed RR On Line regarding voting by mail. I'm translating this as it is allowed ...

You didn't read far enough.

From that same section, read down to "Absentee voting."

Absentee Voting.

In a strictly deliberative assembly no member can vote who is not present when the question is completely put.

But in many societies the membership is scattered all over a state, or even still wider, and it has been found expedient to provide a method of voting that will enable all the members to vote upon certain matters, as upon amendments to constitutions, by-laws, and in elections of officers.

This provision, when it is deemed advisable to adopt it, should be placed in the constitution or by-laws, as otherwise, unless the charter or state laws authorize absentee voting, no member can vote except in person.

There are two forms of absentee voting -- by mail, and proxy voting.

Emphasized: "No member can vote except in person."

I'm translating that as it is not allowed.

[Gary Novosielski]

Our bylaws do allow for electronic vote by email. We have a 25 member board and a quorum of 16.

A few weeks ago there were two votes by email and the secretary, who was the one tallying the responses, got 12 yes votes on both - everyone else failed to respond and there weren't any "no" votes. She (NOT the President) gave results as the motions passing in an email, but I do not think they did.

We didn't even get a response equaling our quorum (and I don't even know if quorum comes into play with an electronic vote). But 12 of 25 isn't even a simple majority.

Am I interpreting this correctly? Do we have to have a minimum number of responses when voting electornically, like an "e-quorum"?

Because RONR does not allow electronic or other absentee voting (except as authorized in your bylaws), it won't have any details on the process, such as what constitutes a quorum or being "present" for the purposes of a quorum.

If you've included an authorization for e-mail voting in your bylaws without considering those questions, you're going to have to figure it out for yourselves, somehow.

[Josh Martin]

Our bylaws do allow for electronic vote by email. We have a 25 member board and a quorum of 16.

A few weeks ago there were two votes by email and the secretary, who was the one tallying the responses, got 12 yes votes on both - everyone else failed to respond and there weren't any "no" votes. She (NOT the President) gave results as the motions passing in an email, but I do not think they did.

We didn't even get a response equaling our quorum (and I don't even know if quorum comes into play with an electronic vote). But 12 of 25 isn't even a simple majority.

Am I interpreting this correctly? Do we have to have a minimum number of responses when voting electornically, like an "e-quorum"?

The quorum requirement is, by definition, the number of members that must be present for business to be conducted, and thus has no application to votes taken outside of a meeting context. In many organizations, the Bylaws require that a certain number of responses must be received in order for a mail or e-mail vote to be valid, but that should not be confused with the quorum requirement.

[simcha]

Could someone clarify this a little? Our organization is permitted by the bylaws to conduct votes by email between regular meetings. I was following a set of guidelines on electronic meetings that I received from a professional parliamentarian, and it called for an email "check-in" to establish a quorum before the vote could be taken. Is this correct, and generally accepted practice?

[George Mervosh]

Could someone clarify this a little? Our organization is permitted by the bylaws to conduct votes by email between regular meetings. I was following a set of guidelines on electronic meetings that I received from a professional parliamentarian, and it called for an email "check-in" to establish a quorum before the vote could be taken. Is this correct, and generally accepted practice?

Robert's Rules is silent about this. You'll have to ask the person who gave you the material the source.

[Gary Novosielski]

Could someone clarify this a little? Our organization is permitted by the bylaws to conduct votes by email between regular meetings. I was following a set of guidelines on electronic meetings that I received from a professional parliamentarian, and it called for an email "check-in" to establish a quorum before the vote could be taken. Is this correct, and generally accepted practice?

Since e-mail votes are not permitted by default under RONR, you'll need to consult your bylaws, which authorize e-mail voting and should therefore describe the method to be used. Naturally you won't find it in RONR.

[hmtcastle]

I was following a set of guidelines on electronic meetings that I received from a professional parliamentarian, and it called for an email "check-in" to establish a quorum before the vote could be taken. Is this correct, and generally accepted practice?

Why do you think you have the authority to impose these guidelines?

[Trina]

Could someone clarify this a little? Our organization is permitted by the bylaws to conduct votes by email between regular meetings. I was following a set of guidelines on electronic meetings that I received from a professional parliamentarian, and it called for an email "check-in" to establish a quorum before the vote could be taken. Is this correct, and generally accepted practice?

Why do you think you have the authority to impose these guidelines?

Well, if JoyK's bylaws are, unfortunately, silent on the details, she may just be doing the best she can to follow the intent of the bylaws. Perhaps the other members have actively, or passively, agreed to her suggestions about procedure. To do it properly, of course, guidelines should be formally adopted by the organization.

Joy, you (meaning your organization) may want to look at the following, as you think through the needed rules for fairly conducting debates and votes by e-mail:

http://www.aipparl.org/pdf/AIPemeet5.PDF