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Libran

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About Libran

  1. Thank you, Mr. Martin. I forgot that "rules which have their application outside of the session which is in progress cannot be suspended." RONR (11th ed.) p. 264, ll.29-30. Your other comments and suggestions make sense. Now I have a related "What if". If the motion was simply to "have the 2019 conference at City A", and we did not have the 18 month requirement, the member would have been able to move to Postpone Indefinitely, right? Can you have a blank as part of a main motion? Would having a blank ("have the 2019 conference at City ___") make Postpone Indefinitely not in order? The motion was about choosing a location, and he wanted to kill the motion without a direct vote so he could talk to the folks at his home unit about their preferences. I'm just curious about the effect of the blank and Postpone Indefinitely.
  2. Our organization had its fall council meeting this weekend. One of the agenda items was to determine the location of the 2019 spring conference. Our procedures (not bylaws) require that the location be determined at least 18 months prior to the conference. The main motion was proposed as a fill in the blank, with 3 suggestions for locations. A ballot vote was ordered, due to the way our proxies are counted. During debate, a delegate wanted to postpone the motion so he could talk to his unit members about their preferences. He tried to postpone to a certain time, which the chair ruled out of order, as the next meeting isn't until May 2018. #1 -- Would it have been in order to suspend the rules (about determining the location 18 months ahead of time) to postpone indefinitely, so as to kill the motion for this session (and presumably renew it at the May 2018 meeting)? #2 -- Or, since fill in the blank is a form of an amendment, is postpone indefinitely not in order, due to the precedence of motions, even though the original motion was presented as a main motion with options? #3 -- Since suspend the rules is not debatable, could he have spoken in debate on the main motion and then made the motion to suspend the rules and postpone indefinitely? And there would be no further debate? Thanks for your help.
  3. It was a different committee (not the Nominating Committee). Have others encountered this interpretation of the VP stepping in? It's pretty standard bylaws language, isn't it? So if I understand it correctly, in the short term, the majority decides the interpretation, and in the long term the organization needs to revise the bylaws to be more specific as to when and how the VP can carry out the presidential duties. Any suggested wording would be helpful. Thanks.
  4. The bylaws say the President shall serve ex-officio on all committees except the Nominating Committee. They also say: "The Vice-President will: (1) Perform all the duties of the President in his/her absence." The President could not attend a committee meeting. He asked the Vice President to attend in his place. An important vote was taken. Should the VP's vote have counted, or is it considered a proxy vote, which isn't allowed? Is the VP "performing the duties of the President in his/her absence" or does that not include the ex-officio duties? Thanks in advance for your help.
  5. Thanks for clarifying, Mr. Honemann. And thanks for the reminder about the subsidiary motion not being debatable. I know better.
  6. Tinted Pages, motion #40. It sort of discusses it on p. 223, ll. 22-29, under the Call for Orders of the Day motion. I initially thought the subsidiary Extend Limits of Debate would apply to any pending main motion, but this makes it seem like even if the privileged motion Call for the Orders of the Day was not pending, the chair would have to treat it like Suspend the Rules to extend the time for consideration (hence, not allowing debate or amendment on the motion to extend debate). Do I understand that right? And at the end of that time, is the main motion then able to be referred or postponed, since the motion to Extend was an incidental motion, or must the main motion be voted on immediately, like with the subsidiary motion? Would the subsidiary motion to Extend Debate ever be allowed if there is a set time on the agenda for consideration of a motion?
  7. My questions refer to TP #40, which is "Extend time for consideration of pending question, or time until announced or scheduled adjournment or recess". It is classified as an incidental motion that is not debatable or amendable, among other characteristics. Is it only an incidental motion with no debate or amendment if the privileged motion "Call for orders of the day" is pending or if there is a set time on the agenda for its consideration? If there is a set time on the agenda for consideration, is the debatable and amendable subsidiary motion to Extend the Limits of Debate then not in order? Thanks.
  8. Bylaws revision

    If an organization has a standing bylaws committee listed in its bylaws, can its members take it upon themselves to recommend a bylaws revision, or must that request or direction come from the assembly and be referred to the committee?
  9. Hypothetical situation. Assembly of 25 members. A motion has an inconclusive voice vote. Division is ordered. The chair asks for a show of hands and counts them, but clearly miscounts (he wants the motion to fail). A member raises a point of order to say the vote was counted incorrectly and he moves that the vote be retaken and counted by tellers instead of the chair. Here are my questions: 1. Can the member raise a point of order and make a motion at the same time, or does he have to wait for the chair to rule on the point of order and then appeal , and then make the motion? Or, can he just hope he gets recognized to make the motion without the point of order? Or can the member order that it be recounted -- without a formal motion? How does that work? 2. I'm assuming they can recount the vote with another show of hands, based on what's on page 410 (RONR, 11th ed., p. 410, ll. 31-35). "It should be noted that a vote is never retaken by the same form of voting, although, in a counted rising vote, a ballot, or a roll call, a recount of the votes or of the tellers' tabulations can be ordered to ensure that the count is precisely correct as reported." Does a counted show of hands count as a less formal counted rising vote, or do they need to go to a ballot vote to do the recount? Thanks for your help.
  10. Bylaws

    I had an HOA director refer me to the county recorder's office, where all real estate documents are kept. The bylaws were available online. I'm not sure if it would work for your state, but it might be worth checking.
  11. Questions about limiting debate

    Thanks, Josh and Hieu. Sorry it was so long. Sometimes it helps to have someone say it a little differently to make it sink in better.
  12. I'm digging around in the motion to Limit or Extend the Limits of Debate (RONR, 11th ed., pp.191-197) and need some help. Let's say there are a lot of issues to cover in a meeting and a member wants to keep things moving. When a main motion is pending, he moves to limit debate to 20 minutes. The member's intention is to just to dispose of the motion in some way so the discussion doesn't last all night. The motion to limit debate is adopted. Questions: 1. During the 20 minutes of debate, I'm assuming the main motion cannot be postponed indefinitely, amended, referred to committee, or postponed to a certain time because the precedence of Limit Debate prevents anything but Previous Question or Lay on the Table to be moved. Do I have that right? So limiting debate is really limiting what can be done to the motion, not just putting a time limit on it. Here's a sentence that is confusing me (RONR, 11th ed., p. 194, ll. 24-28): "After the expiration of the allotted time under any order that—as in Form and Example "b"—provides for closing debate without specifying when the vote shall be taken, amendments and motions to Postpone Indefinitely and Lay on the Table remain in order, but they are then undebatable." 2. At the end of the 20 minutes, why are the lower-precedence motions Postpone Indefinitely and Amend in order, but Refer to Committee or Postpone to a Certain Time not in order? 3. I know that before the 20 minutes is exhausted, the motion to Limit Debate can be reconsidered on the unexecuted portion. Say the unexecuted portion is voted down. What's the status of the main motion then? Is it the same as if the 20 minute limit (or 12 minutes or whatever was left over) was not imposed? Can the assembly then dispose of the main motion any way it wants to? 4. RONR also says a motion can be made to establish a different time limit (p. 195, ll. 11-12). Does that motion have to wait until the prior motion limiting debate is exhausted or can it override the existing motion? I'm trying to figure out how the chair can advise and guide the member to get what he wants without confusing everyone. I don't think Limit Debate is the answer. Maybe the member should just ride out the discussion and move any other subsidiary motion whenever he's ready. I'd still like help with my questions so I can understand this motion better. Thanks for your help.
  13. Is there a way to search by page number or to go directly to a given page? I read all the posts in 2014 and learned a lot. Thank you to all the posters! Now I want to read posts from earlier years. Putting a page number in the search field didn't work. Is there another way?
  14. Popular Place

    I don't post much, but I am an active quiet member. I'm close to completing my goal of reading every post in 2014. I try to answer the questions on my own and then confirm them with the answers of the more seasoned parliamentarians that post. Of course, I keep RONR close by for the look-ups and citations. I have NAP credentials, but not much real world experience beyond my own local organizations, so this forum definitely helps my parliamentary education.
  15. Who can Vote?

    This citation from RONR supports what several poster have said, and might be helpful: "In organizations such as many churches or some societies in which there are no required or effective annual dues and the register of members is not generally reliable as a list of the bona-fide members, the quorum at any regular or properly called meeting consists of those who attend." (RONR, 11th ed., p. 346, ll. 1-5)
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