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Dan Honemann

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Everything posted by Dan Honemann

  1. Are you referring to a single person here or to several? These days it seems we have to guess.
  2. What's there not to get. It seems rather clear that the guy "identifying himself as 'very experienced' with RONR" knew what he was talking about.
  3. If you say so, but I do wish that people would stop messing around with our pronouns.
  4. It didn't and still doesn't look like this to me, but never mind. What concerns me is Anthony's informing us that his bylaws authorize Committee members to act on behalf of the board "in matters that require expediency, but must be held accountable to the Board for his actions". Does this indicate that there is now a move afoot to insist that singular pronouns be substituted for plural pronouns?
  5. I agree that 12:22(2) is inapplicable, but it seems to me that if the motion that was pending was, in essence, a motion to rescind the county bylaws, the motion to amend this motion by substituting for it a motion to amend the county bylaws was in order (see 35:2(6)).
  6. I think the facts as stated are way too muddy. I can understand that the bylaws may provide for an executive committee with authority to act for the board, but here we are told that the Chair unilaterally accepted resignations, and are provided with a snippet from the bylaws apparently referring to this committee's authority but ending with "but must be held accountable to the Board for his actions". Clearly we need to see what these bylaws actually provide in this connection, since the facts get even muddier: Apparently the "they" who took this email vote were members of the board, but I can't tell if this vote was taken before or after the in-person meeting that was held on January 25. Where were these three members who we are now told were "removed" by the Chair and Secretary (not just the Chair) when this in-person meeting was held? Were they notified of this meeting? What "decision" of the Chair is being referred to here" Mr. Katz seems to think it was a ruling by the chair which would have been appealable, but I see no indication that this is so.
  7. Now I must note that the motion to declare a rule null and void does not have to use the word "rule", and that a motion that a rule "be declared" null and void will certainly suffice. I think you may be under the mistaken belief that such a motion is raising a point of order as an incidental main motion. Technically speaking, there is no such thing as an incidental main motion corresponding to a point of order, but we'll save this lesson for another day.
  8. Okay, I certainly won't quibble about the exact language of the motion to be made to declare a rule null and void because I see no real point in doing so.
  9. Words mean something, and there is a substantial difference between moving that a rule be declared null and void and moving that it be rescinded. Furthermore, the basis for moving that something be declared null and void will almost certainly have to be disclosed in debate on the motion, and if cast in the form of a resolution, will most likely be set forth in a preamble. I was just trying to give you the simplest form of motion to declare a rule null and void that came to mind. It will not be at all difficult to incorporate in such a motion a declaration that the rule in question conflicts with such and such a provision in the bylaws or constitution. The fact remains that a point of order must always relate in some way to (be incidental to) the business at hand. If not, a main motion is needed to bring the matter before the assembly.
  10. Well, J.J., such motions can range from something as simple as "I move that the rule adopted on February 1, 2024, requiring applicants for membership to pay an initiation fee of $50.00 be declared null and void" to a complex resolution with preamble and multiple resolving paragraphs, but I don't think that an experience parliamentarian such as yourself should be inquiring as to how to draft a main motion.
  11. That's easy. They bear no resemblance to each other, and differ in virtually every respect.
  12. Motions to Rescind and to Amend Something Previously Adopted are applicable to bylaws, rules, policies, decisions, or choices which have continuing force and effect due to having been validly adopted. It is for this reason that it takes more than just a majority vote for the adoption of these motions. Points of order relating to breaches of a continuing nature, as described in 23:6, do not need to be raised promptly at the time of the breach, and may be raised at any time during the continuance of the breach, but this does not mean that such a point of order can be raised at a time when the action invalidly taken in no way relates to the business which is pending before the assembly. Points of order must always relate in some way to the business at hand. I think that a fair reading of what is said in Section 23 makes this abundantly clear.
  13. I agree with Mr. Elsman's response to this question, but would note that a point of order can be raised only if and when one of the resolution's conflicting sections (which is therefor null and void) is affecting business that is pending during a meeting of the assembly. If it is desired to correct the problem before such opportunities arise, an incidental main motion can be made while no business is pending, and adopted by majority vote, declaring that the conflicting sections are null and void.
  14. The motion to use to accomplish this is the motion to Fix the Time to Which to Adjourn, discussed in RONR (12th ed.) 22:1-20. Here are some excerpts: "22:1 The object of the motion to Fix the Time to Which to Adjourn (also referred to as the motion to 'fix the time for an adjourned meeting') is to set the time, and sometimes the place, for another meeting to continue business of the session, with no effect on when the present meeting will adjourn." "22:9 Effect of the Motion. Whether introduced as a privileged or a main motion, the effect of this motion is to establish an adjourned meeting—that is, another meeting that will be a continuation of the session at which the motion is adopted. Unlike a special meeting, an adjourned meeting does not require notice, although it is desirable to give such notice if feasible. An adjourned meeting should not be confused with a special meeting, which is a separate session called, in ordinary societies, as prescribed by the bylaws." "22:12 Forms in which this motion may be made are: 'I move that when this meeting adjourns, it adjourn to meet at 2:00 P.M. tomorrow'; 'I move that when this meeting adjourns, it stand adjourned to meet at 8:00 P.M. on Wednesday, April 2, at the Riggs Hotel'; or 'I move that on adjournment, the meeting adjourn to meet at the call of the chair.'"
  15. Could these sections that are in conflict with your constitution have been deleted from the resolution at the time when it was being considered for adoption without affecting the remainder in any way? If so, I think a point of order can be raised and sustained voiding these sections without nullifying any of the others.
  16. Take a look at RONR (12th ed.,) 57:6-9 and see if this is of any help.
  17. You say that this resolution which was adopted contains a few "it is [further] resolveds". If it is several of these "it is [further] resolveds" that are in conflict with provisions in the constitution, and if they could have been deleted from the resolution at the time when it was being considered for adoption without affecting the remainder in any way, then I think a point of order can be raised and sustained voiding these "it is [further] resolveds" without nullifying any of the others.
  18. Well, that presents an interesting question. Let's see what the regulars on this forum have to say about it. In any event, it does appear that if any disciplinary proceedings of any kind are to be instituted against an officer, these proceedings will have to be conducted by your membership, not your board.
  19. Take a look at 62:16 and then check your bylaws to see what they say about terms in office. You will then know whether your membership can remove this officer from office simply by the adoption of a motion to do so or whether formal disciplinary proceedings will need to be conducted pursuant to the provisions of 63:1-37.
  20. As best I can determine your board has no authority to take any disciplinary action against this officer, and has not attempted to do so. It would appear that any disciplinary action will have to be initiated by your membership.
  21. What, exactly, did you do earlier this year when you "tried to go through the process of the removal of the officer earlier this year and Board decided to keep her on". By what authority did you do this? Did the membership or the board elect this officer to the office which she holds? Do your bylaws give the board authority to remove her?
  22. As President of an organization whose bylaws state that that its proceedings are governed by Robert's Rules of Order, the first thing you need to do is read what is said in Chapter XX concerning disciplinary procedures. Having done that, if you have any further questions you should feel free to post them here.
  23. Suppose a resolution such as that found in 27:7 (“Resolved, That the Society congratulate its member Ernest Dunn on his novel Crestwood, and that three copies be purchased for the Society's library”) is adopted without amendment, and the organization's constitution prohibits purchase of any books other than scholarly treatises directly related to the purposes for which the Society was formed. If Mr. Dunn's novel clearly does not meet this standard, which it does not, I think a point of order could be raised and sustained voiding the decision to purchase copies of it without nullifying the Society's congratulations. I"m sure we are all agreed that additional facts from Guest Joe L would be helpful.
  24. As has been noted, your board has only such power as is delegated to it by your Constitution or by vote of the society's assembly referring individual matters to it. RONR (12th ed.) 49:5 If your organization has a board that has gone rouge, your organization's membership certainly has the power to rein it in if it desires to do so. 23:9 tells us that (emphases supplied): "If the executive board of a society takes action that exceeds the board's instructions or authority, that conflicts with a decision made by the assembly of the society, or that falls under any of the categories listed in 23:6, a point of order can be raised at a board meeting at any time during the continuance of the breach. If the point of order is sustained, the action must be declared null and void. Alternatively, the society's assembly can adopt an incidental main motion by majority vote declaring that the board's action is null and void; or, if it is affecting business at a meeting of the assembly, the board's action can be declared null and void by a ruling of the chair relating to the affected business or on a relevant point of order raised by a member. It is also possible for the assembly to bring disciplinary measures against the board members who voted for the improper action. If the assembly finds itself in sympathy with the board's action and the action is one that that assembly could have authorized in advance, the assembly can instead ratify the action as explained in 10:54–57."
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