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Point of Order


Chris Harrison

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I am sure it happens all the time where a member sees something that appears to be a violation of some rule but is not sure where in the book (or applicable rules) to find it so it can be cited during a Point of Order. Add to that the YSYL issue with the timeliness requirement for raising a Point of Order and it would seem that a member can have a real problem unless they know their rules frontward and backwards. So my question is how can a member protect his ability to in a timely manner call someone on a possible rule violation if he doesn't know exactly where to look for his proof?

For example say there is a small organization where most if not all of the members attend the meetings. A motion is made to Rescind a previous motion (no previous notice was given) and when the vote is finished there are enough members in favor of it to constitute a majority of the entire membership but not a 2/3 vote. The Chair in error rules that the motion is lost because it didn't get a 2/3 vote. A member is pretty sure that he had read somewhere in that huge book that organization uses that a majority of the entire membership will also suffice to R/ASPA when previous notice wasn't given but he has not clue where exactly to find it. If he starts rifling through RONR looking for where it says that MEM will also suffice it is likely that business will have continued to a point where the YSYL trap has snared him and it is now too late to raise that Point of Order. So what is the member to do at this point?

I suppose he can raise that Point of Order and hope that the Chair will be good enough to whip out his handy dandy copy of RONR and look to page 295 or tinted pages 26-27 and realize the member is correct and rule the Point Well Taken but if he doesn't and rules the Point Not Well Taken then the member has the same issue and jump on the Appeal right then (and hope that someone seconds the Appeal) or again he will have lost the opportunity.

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So what is the member to do at this point?

Well, I might suggest he reserve a point of order (p. 243 l.30), speaking verrryyyy sloowwwlly as he does so while simultaneously flipping through his book (which is of course highlighted in multiple cross-referencing colors with matching sticky tabs flapping about from inside at all angles, each with a relevant abbreviation visible that would make Dewey himself proud) as well as his Supplemental Index in the other hand.

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Well, I might suggest he reserve a point of order (p. 243 l.30), speaking verrryyyy sloowwwlly as he does so while simultaneously flipping through his book (which is of course highlighted in multiple cross-referencing colors with matching sticky tabs flapping about from inside at all angles, each with a relevant abbreviation visible that would make Dewey himself proud) as well as his Supplemental Index in the other hand.

 

What is said about reserving a Point of Order seems to have no relevance to the example Chris H. has presented. Unless I'm reading the citation incorrectly, such a strategy is used when a member is considering a Point of Order claiming that a motion is out of order, and is used only to hear the maker's speech in debate before determining whether to raise the Point of Order. Chris H.'s example is in regards to the declaration of a vote.

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What is said about reserving a Point of Order seems to have no relevance to the example Chris H. has presented. Unless I'm reading the citation incorrectly, such a strategy is used when a member is considering a Point of Order claiming that a motion is out of order, and is used only to hear the maker's before determining whether to raise the Point of Order. Chris H.'s example is in regards to the declaration of a vote.

Well, as is sometimes the case in RONR, we start with a generality laced with specificity ("If a question of order is to be raised, it must be raised promptly at the time the breach occurs."), and then move on to a "for example", offering one of no doubt several if not many examples of how this applies. The fact that the one example used to illustrate reserving a point of order centers around the making of a motion does not for me eliminate the many other possible applications of this tactic. But.... that's just me, I suppose.

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Well, as is sometimes the case in RONR, we start with a generality laced with specificity ("If a question of order is to be raised, it must be raised promptly at the time the breach occurs."), and then move on to a "for example", offering one of no doubt several if not many examples of how this applies. The fact that the one example used to illustrate reserving a point of order centers around the making of a motion does not for me eliminate the many other possible applications of this tactic. But.... that's just me, I suppose.

Fair enough. I concur that the strategy of reserving a Point of Order would be useful in a situation where a member was determining whether a motion is in order.

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I am sure it happens all the time where a member sees something that appears to be a violation of some rule but is not sure where in the book (or applicable rules) to find it so it can be cited during a Point of Order. Add to that the YSYL issue with the timeliness requirement for raising a Point of Order and it would seem that a member can have a real problem unless they know their rules frontward and backwards. So my question is how can a member protect his ability to in a timely manner call someone on a possible rule violation if he doesn't know exactly where to look for his proof?

For example say there is a small organization where most if not all of the members attend the meetings. A motion is made to Rescind a previous motion (no previous notice was given) and when the vote is finished there are enough members in favor of it to constitute a majority of the entire membership but not a 2/3 vote. The Chair in error rules that the motion is lost because it didn't get a 2/3 vote. A member is pretty sure that he had read somewhere in that huge book that organization uses that a majority of the entire membership will also suffice to R/ASPA when previous notice wasn't given but he has not clue where exactly to find it. If he starts rifling through RONR looking for where it says that MEM will also suffice it is likely that business will have continued to a point where the YSYL trap has snared him and it is now too late to raise that Point of Order. So what is the member to do at this point?

I suppose he can raise that Point of Order and hope that the Chair will be good enough to whip out his handy dandy copy of RONR and look to page 295 or tinted pages 26-27 and realize the member is correct and rule the Point Well Taken but if he doesn't and rules the Point Not Well Taken then the member has the same issue and jump on the Appeal right then (and hope that someone seconds the Appeal) or again he will have lost the opportunity.

A Parliamentary Inquiry might be useful in these cases before raising a Point of Order.

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Do you mean the Chair allowing the member a minute to look up the correct citation?

Yeah, or everybody dives into their handy-dandy copies, in which case the stand-at-ease is a fait accompli, because nobody is doing anything else. At least that's the way it always happens in my biker gang meetings.

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