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Questions about limiting debate


Laura Meade

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I'm digging around in the motion to Limit or Extend the Limits of Debate (RONR, 11th ed., pp.191-197) and need some help. 

 

Let's say there are a lot of issues to cover in a meeting and a member wants to keep things moving.  When a main motion is pending, he moves to limit debate to 20 minutes. The member's intention is to just to dispose of the motion in some way so the discussion doesn't last all night. 

The motion to limit debate is adopted. 

 

Questions:

1. During the 20 minutes of debate, I'm assuming the main motion cannot be postponed indefinitely, amended, referred to committee, or postponed to a certain time because the precedence of Limit Debate prevents anything but Previous Question or Lay on the Table to be moved. Do I have that right?  So limiting debate is really limiting what can be done to the motion, not just putting a time limit on it.

 

Here's a sentence that is confusing me (RONR, 11th ed., p. 194, ll. 24-28):

"After the expiration of the allotted time under any order that—as in Form and Example "b"—provides for closing debate without specifying when the vote shall be taken, amendments and motions to Postpone Indefinitely and Lay on the Table remain in order, but they are then undebatable."

 

2. At the end of the 20 minutes, why are the lower-precedence motions Postpone Indefinitely and Amend in order, but Refer to Committee or Postpone to a Certain Time not in order?  

3. I know that before the 20 minutes is exhausted, the motion to Limit Debate can be reconsidered on the unexecuted portion. Say the unexecuted portion is voted down. What's the status of the main motion then? Is it the same as if the 20 minute limit (or 12 minutes or whatever was left over) was not imposed?  Can the assembly then dispose of the main motion any way it wants to?

4. RONR also says a motion can be made to establish a different time limit (p. 195, ll. 11-12).  Does that motion have to wait until the prior motion limiting debate is exhausted or can it override the existing motion?  

 

I'm trying to figure out how the chair can advise and guide the member to get what he wants without confusing everyone.  I don't think Limit Debate is the answer. Maybe the member should just ride out the discussion and move any other subsidiary motion whenever he's ready.  I'd still like help with my questions so I can understand this motion better.

 

Thanks for your help.

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1. During the 20 minutes of debate, I'm assuming the main motion cannot be postponed indefinitely, amended, referred to committee, or postponed to a certain time because the precedence of Limit Debate prevents anything but Previous Question or Lay on the Table to be moved. Do I have that right? So limiting debate is really limiting what can be done to the motion, not just putting a time limit on it.

No, this is not correct. It's more complex than that. No lower-ranking motions are in order while Limit Debate is actually pending. After the motion to Limit Debate to twenty minutes is adopted, the motions to Commit or to Postpone to a Certain Time are not in order because they conflict with the purpose of the order - to make a decision on the motion when the time for debate has expired. Motions to Amend or to Postpone Indefinitely are in order, even although they are of lower rank, because they do not conflict with the purpose of the order.

Note that this only applies when the motion to Limit Debate actually closes debate at a certain time or after a certain length of time. If the motion to Limit Debate is applied to individual speeches instead (say, permitting only one speech of two minutes per member, rather than two speeches of ten minutes), then motions to Postpone Indefinitely, to Amend, to Commit, or to Postpone to a Certain Time are all in order after the motion to Limit Debate is adopted.

2. At the end of the 20 minutes, why are the lower-precedence motions Postpone Indefinitely and Amend in order, but Refer to Committee or Postpone to a Certain Time not in order?

As noted above, it does not have so much to do with the rank of the motions, but with whether the motion conflicts with the purpose of the order to limit debate. Motions to Amend or to Postpone Indefinitely are in order (albeit undebatable) even after debate has expired, unless the motion to Limit Debate provides that the vote shall be taken at that time.

3. I know that before the 20 minutes is exhausted, the motion to Limit Debate can be reconsidered on the unexecuted portion. Say the unexecuted portion is voted down. What's the status of the main motion then? Is it the same as if the 20 minute limit (or 12 minutes or whatever was left over) was not imposed? Can the assembly then dispose of the main motion any way it wants to?

Yes. If the motion to Limit Debate is defeated upon reconsideration, then the limitation is lifted, and the usual rules of debate are in force. The assembly is free to dispose of the main motion in any manner it pleases, including by postponing it or referring it to a committee.

4. RONR also says a motion can be made to establish a different time limit (p. 195, ll. 11-12). Does that motion have to wait until the prior motion limiting debate is exhausted or can it override the existing motion?

It can override the existing motion. Since the motion to Limit Debate requires a 2/3 vote for adoption, it meets the requirements to amend the assembly's previous order.

I'm trying to figure out how the chair can advise and guide the member to get what he wants without confusing everyone. I don't think Limit Debate is the answer. Maybe the member should just ride out the discussion and move any other subsidiary motion whenever he's ready. I'd still like help with my questions so I can understand this motion better.

If the member's wish is simply to ensure that the main motion is disposed of in some manner in a reasonable amount of time, and has no desire to limit the use of subsidiary motions to delay the main motion, then it would be advisable for him to either move to Limit Debate with respect to individual speeches or to just wait and, if necessary, move the Previous Question. A motion to Limit Debate with respect to the total time for a motion is intended to be used when the desire is for a final decision at the end of that time.

EDIT: Corrected a redundant list.

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I think there's a slight correction in the 2nd paragraph of Mr. Martin's very thorough response:

 

Note that this only applies when the motion to Limit Debate actually closes debate at a certain time or after a certain length of time. If the motion to Limit Debate is applied to individual speeches instead (say, permitting only one speech of two minutes per member, rather than two speeches of ten minutes), then motions to Postpone Indefinitely, to Amend, to Commit, or to Postpone Indefinitely Postpone to a Certain Time are all in order after the motion to Limit Debate is adopted.

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