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Who replaces the President?


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The combination of 1st V-P and President-Elect as the same office (with, presumably the same person in that office) is not something that RONR deals with. So it will be up to your association, collectively - see p. 588 - to figure out what your bylaw really means.

 

I suppose it could go either way: 

 

There is nothing in RONR that forbids someone from holding two different offices so I suppose that the person who was 1st V-P and is now president, could also hold the President-Elect position as well, even though he left the 1st V-P position.

 

On the other hand, when the person became president he was no longer 1st V-P and that position was vacant.  And since the 1stV-P/Pres-Elect is all one position, that could mean the President-Elect position is vacant, too.

 

Deciding which is "correct" (or some other option) will be up to the association, as I noted.

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There is nothing in RONR that forbids someone from holding two different offices so I suppose that the person who was 1st V-P and is now president, could also hold the President-Elect position as well, even though he left the 1st V-P position.

 

 

How could 1 person be both President, and President Elect?   That would make him President,  and then President again.

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Or, is it the person who will fill the vacant 1st VP slot for 3-4 months, then becoming President Elect in the second half of the term (it is a total of 1 year and 3-4 months, so it counts as a term)?

 

As President Elect, that person is the next president.

I agree with this interpretation, although, as others have said, they are your bylaws and it is up to you to interpret them.

 

I don't see how the president can be both president-elect and president, because the 1st VP magically becomes 1st VP/president-elect after he has been VP for one year.  But, if he becomes president before that year is up, he never becomes president-elect.  For the first year, he is "only" 1st vice president.

 

I believe that whoever is selected to become 1st VP to fill the vacancy created when the current 1st VP becomes president will, in his own right, become president-elect just as magically precisely one year before the president's term is up. 

 

If the vacancy isn't filled at least one year prior to the expiration of the new president's term, then it looks to me like the current 2nd VP automatically becomes the new president-elect by virtue of this provision in the bylaws:  "If for any reason the office of President-Elect is vacated the Second Vice president shall fill this position."    Keep in mind there is no office of president-elect until the second year of the 1st VP's two year term.

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There is nothing in RONR that forbids someone from holding two different offices so I suppose that the person who was 1st V-P and is now president, could also hold the President-Elect position as well, even though he left the 1st V-P position.

 

On the other hand, when the person became president he was no longer 1st V-P and that position was vacant.  And since the 1stV-P/Pres-Elect is all one position, that could mean the President-Elect position is vacant, too.

Keep in mind that there is no office of president-elect  until the second year of the 1st vice president's term.  If the 1st VP becomes president in the first year of his term, he never becomes president-elect.

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So who interprets our By laws in this case that they are so vague and open to interpretation? Is it the member elected Board, the membership at the Annual Business Meeting, or the appointed By Laws Committee?

Also, if our By Laws are written to have biennial even year elections for our Board of Trustees and no officer other than the Treasurer can serve more than one term an office. The exception is the First Vice-President/President Elect whom the membership knows they are electing to be First Vice-President for one term and President for one term and Past President for one term. And our By Laws also state that all officers are elected and only appointed by the Board if there is a vacancy in a term of office.

Would it be safe to assume the intent of our By Laws is that it is preferable to have a Membership elected Board of Trustees. And that it is preferable to stick to the biennial election results after an officer resigns?

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What about term limits, and our biannual elections:

 

"Elected officers shall hold offices for a term of two (2) years or until their successors are elected. No elected officer shall serve for more than one (1) term, with the exception of the Treasurer who may serve two (2) consecutive terms."

 

"The elected officers of this Corporation shall be President, First Vice-President/President Elect, Second Vice-President, Secretary and Treasurer. These officers shall also serve as officers of the Board of Trustees. The office of President shall be unopposed on the slate in the biennial election"

 

"The First Vice-President/President Elect, Second Vice president, Secretary, Treasurer and Members at Large elected by the membership shall be elected in the even numbered years. The Past President shall serve by virtue of his or her prior office as President."

 

Every even-numbered year, we have to vote for 1st VP, 2ndVP, Sec, and Treasurer.

ALL positions become vacant. Everyone is either off the Board, automatically moving up, or has to run again:

 

Past Pres: off the Board

Pres: automatically moves up to Past Pres

Pres. Elect: automatically moves up to Pres

2nd VP: must run for another position, or off the Board

Sec.: must run for another position, or off the Board

Treas: must run, although may run for SAME position for a total of 2 terms, but still has to run or off the Board

 

There is no provision for someone just sitting in their position thru the election in July 2016, for a total term of 3 years and 4 months.

 

THAT is what would cause a special election!

 

We also must have a minimum of 12 Board Members, and 6 have to be the Executive Board Members, and that is not possible if 1 person holds 2 offices.

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In this particular issue. Would it be better, in your view, to allow the First VP/President Elect that becomes President because of a vacating President to also serve his member elected term after that. Or have the Board of Trustees appoint a First Vice-President/President Elect to serve the next Presidential term. 

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Well I'm really asking the view point of Richard or Edgar, whom both seem like uninterested parties with expertise in RONR.

 

However, in your personal view, which outcome would be legal?

 

I think it is important to note these By Laws. -  "Elected officers shall hold offices for a term of two (2) years or until their successors are elected." and "Vacancies in office, except that of President who shall be succeeded by the First Vice President, shall be filled by appointment by the Board of Trustees for the unexpired term."

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In this particular issue. Would it be better, in your view, to allow the First VP/President Elect that becomes President because of a vacating President to also serve his member elected term after that. Or have the Board of Trustees appoint a First Vice-President/President Elect to serve the next Presidential term. 

In my personal opinion.... which is purely my opinion, since you have to interpret your own bylaws.... and if you are going to obey your bylaws.... I believe you have no choice but to have the current 1st VP become president and for the board to appoint a new 1st Vice President who will, in a couple of months or so, become president-elect.  That person will then serve as president starting in the year 2016.

 

I fully understand the desire to allow the current 1st VP to stay in office as president after completing the current president's term and to then serve his own term as president in 2016.  I also understand his desire to do so.  However, in my opinion, that is not what your bylaws provide for.  They are your bylaws, though, and your membership can interpret them any way it wants to, provided there truly is an ambiguity.  I don't see anything ambiguous about that point, but others might.

 

Edited to add:  For some principles of interpretation to aid in interpreting bylaws, you might see pages 588-591 of RONR.  Pay particular attention to the language on page 588.  The presiding officer and/or the assembly usually makes a determination on the meaning of an ambiguous bylaw provision by the presiding officer making a ruling on a point of order when a particular matter is pending.  The chair can raise a point of order on his own or can issue the ruling in response to a point of order raised by a member.  Any two members may appeal from the ruling of the chair.  Or, the chair can submit the issue directly to the assembly.  For more information on points of order and appeals, see pages 247-260.

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I am new to this discussion.  Richard, you state: " ...I believe you have no choice but to have the current 1st VP become president and for the board to appoint a new 1st Vice President who will, in a couple of months or so, become president-elect." 

 

Assuming that the current 1st VP moves up to President, how can the then newly appointed 1st VP become president-elect without being voted to the position by the membership?

 

Wouldn't the newly appointed 1st VP remain 1st VP for a year plus a few months rather than a few months only?  If 2016 is an election year, wouldn't the membership elect a new 1st VP who would then serve as 1st VP and become the President Elect one year later?

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Pretty much sums it up.  One clarification, in your 3rd paragrah you say:

 

:Then we have a president who says she has resigned, effective a few weeks in the future, and will serve as president "in name only" and as "acting president" until then. 

 

The President is now "in name only", and the 1st VP is the "acting president" until then.

No.

 

The 1st VP may not yet be "president elect" until the second year, but he is 1st VP the entire time.  And that is the title that makes him instantly president upon any vacancy in the presidency.  That may not be for a few weeks in the future, but whenever it is, it is automatic and instantaneous.

 

If a president resigns effective next month, but promises to do nothing until then, it would be wise to accept the resignation effective immediately, unless the organization can actually do without a functioning president for that long with no ill effects.

 

Any ambiguity in the bylaws only strengthens that assertion, as RONR provides that this succession is automatic, absent a specific rule about presidential vacancies in particular, that would contradict it.

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If a president resigns effective next month, but promises to do nothing until then, it would be wise to accept the resignation effective immediately . . .

I'm not sure it can do that. The president is requesting to excused from his duties as of next month. The board can't grant a request (to be excused from his duties immediately) that hasn't been made.

 

I think the only other option would be to remove the president.

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Assuming that the current 1st VP moves up to President, how can the then newly appointed 1st VP become president-elect without being voted to the position by the membership?

 

Wouldn't the newly appointed 1st VP remain 1st VP for a year plus a few months rather than a few months only?  If 2016 is an election year, wouldn't the membership elect a new 1st VP who would then serve as 1st VP and become the President Elect one year later?

 

 

Our Bylaws don't say anything about being voted to the specific POSITION.  They only say that the person has been DULY ELECTED the the BOARD, and has served an entire term.

 

Any member, who at one time was an ELECTED BOARD member is eligible.  We have some member-at-large positions that are APPOINTED in odd-numbered years, so they would not be eligible since they were never ELECTED

 

For the second question, you left out the part where the newly appointed person is 1st VP for a few months, then President Elect for one year  So, we have a Pres. Elect that CANNOT move into the position of President because the old President won't vacate the office.

 

This newly appoint "1st VP (for 3 months)/ President Elect (for 1 year)" now has to leave the Board, or run for another position.  They can't even run for the same position unless they leave the Board for a year and come back.

 

So we end up with a President Elect that will never be President. 

 

 

 

Robert's Rules of Order Newly Revised (RONR, 10th edition) gives these useful principles of interpretation for rules ("rules" include bylaws) on pages 570-573:

  1. Each organization decides for itself the meaning of its ambiguous rules.
  2. When a rule could have two meanings, only one of which conflicts with or makes absurd another rule, then the alternate meaning is the true one.
  3. Specific rules supersede general rules.
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For the second question, you left out the part where the newly appointed person is 1st VP for a few months, then President Elect for one year  So, we have a Pres. Elect that CANNOT move into the position of President because the old President won't vacate the office.

 

This newly appoint "1st VP (for 3 months)/ President Elect (for 1 year)" now has to leave the Board, or run for another position.  They can't even run for the same position unless they leave the Board for a year and come back.

 

So we end up with a President Elect that will never be President. 

How do you wind up coming to those three conclusions?   The person selected by the board to replace the 1st VP/president elect will  become president in his own right in a year and a few months at the conclusion of the current term. 

 

Edited to add:  That WILL be the case, though, if you allow the current 1st VP to not only complete the remaining term of the current (but soon to be gone) president but to then serve a full term of his own as president, giving him three years as president.  I realize now that you were apparently responding to someone else's post.

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In the situation I am referring to, our president has resigned effective a couple of weeks from now.  Our membership elects a 1st VP/Pres-Elect (1 individual) who then goes on the be pres. The 1st VP/Pres-Elect serves as 1st VP for the 1st year, then as Pres-Elect the second year of the elected 2 year term according to the bylaws.

My first question is: Since the pres has resigned during the 1st year of presidency, the 1st VP/Pres-Elect is only in the first year of her term as well, making her currently the 1st VP, not Pres elect. Is this correct?

My second question is: Assuming she becomes the new President in 2 weeks to complete the vacated president position, is she eligible to then serve another 2 years as president when she isn't yet in her 'pres-elect' year?

My third question: Can she be president AND president elect at the same time?

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In the situation I am referring to, our president has resigned effective a couple of weeks from now.  Our membership elects a 1st VP/Pres-Elect (1 individual) who then goes on the be pres. The 1st VP/Pres-Elect serves as 1st VP for the 1st year, then as Pres-Elect the second year of the elected 2 year term according to the bylaws.

My first question is: Since the pres has resigned during the 1st year of presidency, the 1st VP/Pres-Elect is only in the first year of her term as well, making her currently the 1st VP, not Pres elect. Is this correct?

My second question is: Assuming she becomes the new President in 2 weeks to complete the vacated president position, is she eligible to then serve another 2 years as president when she isn't yet in her 'pres-elect' year?

My third question: Can she be president AND president elect at the same time?

Didn't we pretty fully answer those questions in the previous 40 something posts?

 

But, in case the answer I know we have repeated several times has been lost in the melee, here they are again, at least in my opinion:

 

First question:  Correct.  I agree.

 

Second question:  No, I would say she does not serve another two years as president .  The 1st VP completes the term of the president who is resigning.  As I understand it, there is a little over one year remaining on that term.  She serves as president for one year and a couple of months and then she's out.  That's part of the job description of a vice president (and of your 1st VP):  To complete the term of the president if the presidency becomes vacant.

 

Third question:  No, I do not think she can be president and president-elect at the same time.  The position of president elect is inextricably tied to the position of 1st vice president.   If she was to serve another two years "in her own right", then you would have a new 1st VP/president-elect who never gets to be president because the former 1st VP who became president is refusing to vacate the position at the end of the current term.    The way I read your bylaws, your current 1st VP has no right to serve as president beyond the term of the current president.  She completes the term of the current VP.   She doesn't get a term of her own unless the vacancy occurs when less than a year is remaining in the term and she has magically transitioned from 1st VP to 1st VP/president elect.

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I apologize profusely for joining the party late.  I hope that there will still be someone willing to answer this question.  I am looking at this particular line:

The First Vice-President in the second year of the two (2) year term of office shall be designated President-Elect. If for any reason the office of President-Elect is vacated the Second Vice president shall fill this position.

 

Now, the Second VP cannot become the First VP because because she has not served one term.  The board has established that they can appoint a First VP to complete the term from those individuals who meet the criteria established to become First VP. 

 

At the moment, there is no President elect because the President elect position is not granted until the person is in the second year.  So at this time the First VP is just that, the First VP and not the President Elect.

 

The way I read the above ByLaw, the Second VP remains the Second VP, and when she is in her second year (just as would hold true for the First VP) she becomes President Elect.  At that point, she would meet the criteria established by our ByLaws.

 

Would that be a reasonable interpretation in keeping with Roberts Rules?

 

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