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Learning Roberts Rules-how?


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I am a new board member and one of my goals is to help the board become faithful useres of Roberts Rules. I suspect there will be resistence, even though our by-laws state RR as our governing set of rules in monthly meetings. There is not really any other time to bring up learning it other than at a meeting. Does anyone have any suggestions as to how to motivate people to actually learn and use the rules?

Example: Right now one of our board members blurts out "Robert's Rules!" Whenever she starts getting that creeping feeling that she thinks something is happening that is against RR, but does know for sure, does not call a Point of Order or anything, she just expects everything going on to stop because she is blurting out two words that really do not mean anything as they are delivered.

I'm set on learning them and am studying every day, but I know peroblems can arise when only a portion of those in a meeting are able to follow what is happening.

Also: what can be done if when, lets say, a Point of Order is called, and such a person who is not the chair, demands an explanation of why the point is being raised and / or wants an explanation of what a Point of Order is? What if they personally want to debate (or begin to) debate the validity of the Point of Order even though they are not the chair?

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Start your (book-) learning with RONRIB:

"Roberts Rules of Order Newly Revised In Brief", Updated Second Edition (Da Capo Press, Perseus Books Group, 2011). It is a splendid summary of all the rules you will really need in all but the most exceptional situations. And only $7.50! You can read it in an evening. Get both RONRIB and RONR (scroll down) at this link. Or in your local bookstore.

 

Then if you get really serious about this business (it's fun!) ...

Contact either (or both) the ...

National Association of Parliamentarians
213 South Main St.
Independence, MO  64050-3850

Phone: 888-627-2929
Fax: 816-833-3893;  
e-mail: hq@NAP2.org  
<<www.parliamentarians.org>>


or

American Institute of Parliamentarians
618 Church Street, Ste 220
Nashville, TN 37219

phone: 888-664-0428
e-mail: aip@aipparl.org
<< www.aipparl.org >>


for a reference or information.  Both organizations offer training information and contacts with local parliamentarians.

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Best wishes with your efforts. I've been trying to do it at our Club for the past several years with minimal success and a Board that just ignores the points I make citing RONR and does what they want. This forum is an excellent resource with many capable and experienced members who are responsive to questions raised and problems posed. Good luck. bobby101

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I would highly advise you to have a copy of the full RONR (11th ed.) on hand.  I cannot tell you how many times I've been at meetings when someone who thinks they know Robert's Rules speaks up.  RONRIB is great for you to learn but if you use your new-found knowledge at a meeting be reading to back it up with the official text.

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OK enough debate in this thread.  I call the question!

 

But seriously, I have a related question.  I am studying for the NAP membership exam (and later to become an RP).  Since that delves more into the minutae of RONR, what is the best way to learn what I need for that besides memorizing the answers to all 300 test questions.

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And one of the best, most telling, uses of the BIG BOOK is when someone asserts a rule (commonly a weird one) is in RONR. Just hand him the book with an "Oh?" look on your face and ask to be shown the text.

(Once in a while he will be correct - rarely! - so be prepared to be gracious.)

Oooooooo....I really like that one, great use of the book, I'd say!

I have RRNRIB and RR for Dummies (entertainment value is pretty good) but I will pick up the RR big book 11th Ed.

Thanks for the tip!

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OK enough debate in this thread. I call the question!

But seriously, I have a related question. I am studying for the NAP membership exam (and later to become an RP). Since that delves more into the minutae of RONR, what is the best way to learn what I need for that besides memorizing the answers to all 300 test questions.

I have been studying from a site that has all 300 questions and the answers on tap...very informative and helpful!
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As of May 1, NAP will no longer be using the 100 questions from the bank of 300 study questions and the test will no longer be based on RONR.  It will consist of 35 or 36 questions taken from the first eleven chapters or  RONR in Brief.

 

In fact, I think NAP has already taken the 300 study questions down from the website.  They do have a study guide for the new test, but it does not provide the answers.  At last week's NAP board meeting, the board voted NOT to provide the answers.

 

I'll post a link to the new study guide momentarily.

 

Edited to add:  Here is a link to the new study guide which is based on the first eleven chapters of RONR in Brief.  Until May 1, it is my understanding that applicants for membership may take either test, but if you want the old test, you have to specify it.   I  would call NAP.  

 

Personally, I wish NAP would leave the old 300 test questions on line as I believe it covers information that any aspiring parliamentarian or member of NAP should know.

 

http://www.parliamentarians.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/2015_2_26-StudyGuideforMembershipExam.pdf

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I think, but am not absolutely sure, that the 300 questions are more or less covered in the first 125 pages of RONR.

 

But don't just memorize the 300 answers - it is good practice seeking out the question's answers in RONR (once you get your copy), and reading the context of the individual answers.

 

(Other folks learn from taking classes; I'd rather just read books, but that is a personal choice that varies from person to person.)

 

Also use this Q&A Board as a learning device:  try forming the answer(s) to new threads as they come in before scrolling down to other folks' answers, and see if you agree.  Most of the postings here, that don't involve association bylaws, are pretty basic, once you figure out just what the posters are actually asking.  The multiple replies do get into esoteric details from time ti time, however.

 

Both the NAP and AIP offer formal (on-line) courses, too.

 

Just looked at Rich Brown's up-to-date posting.  So use RONRIB too as a source. 

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In fact, I think NAP has already taken the 300 study questions down from the website.  They do have a study guide for the new test, but it does not provide the answers.  At last week's NAP board meeting, the board voted NOT to provide the answers.

 

I'll post a link to the new study guide momentarily.

The 300 questions are still there.  I just pulled them up.  Looks like I'll apply for membership in 8 days.

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The 300 questions are still there.  I just pulled them up.  Looks like I'll apply for membership in 8 days.

I think they are still technically "there" but can be accessed only if you have a link for them as I do.  They are not accessible (and to not appear) unless you happen to have the link.  They no longer appear on the bookstore page.   I had a discussion with someone in the NAP office a week or two ago and was told  that they have already removed the 300 questions and do not plan to put them back up.  I think  what they actually did was remove the link so that they seem to be gone.  I urged them to leave the questions up as they are a valuable study tool, but at the time my pleas were falling on deaf ears. 

 

If they reconsidered, I'm not aware of it and I cannot find the 300 study questions in either the bookstore or in "documents".  I can access them only by using the link I have saved.

 

Edited to add:  If you wait eight days, you save $6.25, too.  NAP prorates new member dues.  :)

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I think they are still technically "there" but can be accessed only if you have a link for them as I do.  They are not accessible (and to not appear) unless you happen to have the link.  They no longer appear on the bookstore page.   I had a discussion with someone in the NAP office a week or two ago and was told  that they have already removed the 300 questions and do not plan to put them back up.

Look at http://www.parliamentarians.org/about/faq/about half way down.  That's how I got to the 300 questions.

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Look at http://www.parliamentarians.org/about/faq/about half way down.  That's how I got to the 300 questions.

Yep, so it is.  I notice it's in the FAQ in the "about"  section of the NAP website.  I bet Stefaniie in the NAP office doesn't know it's there.  She has definitely removed it from the bookstore and from the "join NAP" section and, I believe, from the "documents" section.

 

If you go to the JOIN page, you are provided only the new study guide.

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Yep, so it is.  I notice it's in the FAQ in the "about"  section of the NAP website.  I bet Stefaniie in the NAP office doesn't know it's there.  She has definitely removed it from the bookstore and from the "join NAP" section and, I believe, from the "documents" section.

 

If you go to the JOIN page, you are provided only the new study guide.

 

Was there any time-line as to when the use of the new examination system would start, replacing the tests based on the "300 questions"?

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Was there any time-line as to when the use of the new examination system would start, replacing the tests based on the "300 questions"?

John, it's my understanding that they started offering the new test a month or two ago (maybe even three months ago) and would continue to offer both tests until May 1, at which time only the new test will be offered.  Some of that understanding came from phone and email discussions with NAP staff and from "sitting in" on NAP board meetings.  I don't know if it was ever made as clear as it could have been on the NAP website.  If it was, that information didn't stay up long.

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One more question...

What if the viewpoint on the board is that they use RR....kind of...meaning they don't really want to use the actual real rules, just some sembance of them, even though the by-laws state RR will be used as our governing method in meetings.

Can a board vote to not 'really' use them but just sort of hobble along with half baked outlines of the rules?

Would trying to do this be a violation of the by-laws (if they voted to not 'really' stick to them?

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Also: what can be done if when, lets say, a Point of Order is called, and such a person who is not the chair, demands an explanation of why the point is being raised and / or wants an explanation of what a Point of Order is? What if they personally want to debate (or begin to) debate the validity of the Point of Order even though they are not the chair?

When a member raises a Point of Order, the member is required to give an explanation. If he does not give one, the chair should require him to do so. Without such an explanation, how can the chair be expected to rule on the point? If a member wants an explanation of what a Point of Order is, he should raise a Parliamentary Inquiry, which is a question to the chair about parliamentary procedure. If a member wants to debate the validity of the Point of Order, tough. The chair rules on the point. If the member disagrees with the chair's ruling, he could raise an Appeal, and then he could speak in debate on the issue.

But seriously, I have a related question. I am studying for the NAP membership exam (and later to become an RP). Since that delves more into the minutae of RONR, what is the best way to learn what I need for that besides memorizing the answers to all 300 test questions.

The above suggestions are good ones, but there are two things I do recommend memorizing for the membership exam - the order of precedence of motions and the order that RONR recommends placing articles in the bylaws. You will be tested thoroughly on both of these.

What if the viewpoint on the board is that they use RR....kind of...meaning they don't really want to use the actual real rules, just some sembance of them, even though the by-laws state RR will be used as our governing method in meetings.

Can a board vote to not 'really' use them but just sort of hobble along with half baked outlines of the rules?

Would trying to do this be a violation of the by-laws (if they voted to not 'really' stick to them?

If the bylaws provide that RONR is the organization's parliamentary authority, the board cannot vote to "hobble along with half baked outlines of the rules," but RONR does provide some slightly less formal rules for use in small boards.

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When a member raises a Point of Order, the member is required to give an explanation. If he does not give one, the chair should require him to do so. Without such an explanation, how can the chair be expected to rule on the point? If a member wants an explanation of what a Point of Order is, he should raise a Parliamentary Inquiry, which is a question to the chair about parliamentary procedure. If a member wants to debate the validity of the Point of Order, tough. The chair rules on the point. If the member disagrees with the chair's ruling, he could raise an Appeal, and then he could speak in debate on the issue.

Maybe I was vague. Lets say board member 1 raises a point of order because board member 2 who has already spoken twice in debate has their hand up and are either not aware there is a limit on how many times one can speak or wants the chair to break the rules for him or her, and the chair rexognizes board member 1 and they explain their reasoning, and board member 2 demands to know why this 'new rule' is all of a sudden being exersized and protests to the fact that he or she cannot speak again (this type of situation)

As it stands right now, discussion bounces around and around and around, each person speaking three or four times. Also no one currently knows the rules that the person making the motion gets to speak first, and last, if they choose to.

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The above suggestions are good ones, but there are two things I do recommend memorizing for the membership exam - the order of precedence of motions and the order that RONR recommends placing articles in the bylaws. You will be tested thoroughly on both of these.

I agree with Josh's advice.  I think those appear on all test versions.  I usually suggest to prospective members that they memorize ALL of the matching questions, such as the first 45 questions where the applicant matches items on the left with an order or an answer on the right.    Other matching questions are scattered throughout the study questions, but the first 45 are about two thirds of them.  A good number of those are on all three (or four) versions of the test.  If you get them out of order, it can mess up  several answers. 

 

Unfortunately, this advice is good for only about another eight days, as I believe NAP starts offering only the new test on May 1. 

 

The 300 study questions for the old test, however, are a GREAT way to learn more of the basics.  I hope NAP leaves them on the website as, perhaps, a way to learn a little more than the new basic membership test requires.

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