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Refusal to Review Minutes


Guest Secretary

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I didn't say it was relevant, I said I'd bet she won't get all upset if you refer to her as Mrs. Rempel.

 

Fair enough. But I hope she wont get all upset if I continue to refer to her as Ms. Rempel.

 

Not too long ago we had a thread posted from our friend in Canada informing us that some lady in an assembly over which he was presiding went absolutely bonkers because "Ms." appears on page 49 of RONR.

 

Those crazy Canadians with their cheques and colours and whatnot. Eh?

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I think you can rest assured that you had no effect on Ms. Rempel's sex.

I would prefer Ms. Rempel to address such issues rather than a male bystander.

Good to hear overall that RONR continues to move with the times and includes designations of Ms. as well as others.

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I would prefer Ms. Rempel to address such issues rather than a male bystander.

Good to hear overall that RONR continues to move with the times and includes designations of Ms. as well as others.

 

Mrs. Rempel doesn't go bonkers over whatever she is called so long as she is called to dinner. Ms Rempel answers to just about anything. So does Ann.

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  • 1 month later...

Our Chair is, once again,

 

The president has no business doing this and has no right to insist on seeing the draft minutes before anyone else.  The president may request to see the draft minutes in advance, but you (or whoever is secretary) may also refuse to grant the request. 

 

It is not unusual for the secretary to voluntarily submit a draft to the president or to consult with the president first in order to have the minutes as accurate as possible before they are presented to the assembly for approval, but the president has no right to demand it.  And the secretary has no obligation to agree to the president's request (or demand) to change something.  Only the assembly can do that with a majority vote.  (By assembly, I mean whatever group is meeting, whether the board, general membership, etc). 

 

Our President has, once again, demanded that he/she and his/her Executive Board review and change the minutes. He/she has stated that I've made up this part of RONR. I'd like to cite the exact section that allows me the authority to not have Presidents and Executive Board's pre-review or change minutes before they go before the members. I see RONR authorizes rather few things that the president may do; it also says that he/she has ONLY those (additional) powers that are spelled out in the bylaws: p. 456 with respect to the President. Where do I derive the general case for the Executive Board?

 

For the curious, the election for a new President is being contested so we have to live with him/her until democracy grinds to a conclusion.The next President (hopefully) has actually be a certified Parlimentarian so I do not anticipate these issues. 

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I'd like to cite the exact section that allows me the authority to not have Presidents and Executive Board's pre-review or change minutes before they go before the members. 

 

You can't cite something that's not there. The burden of proof is on whoever is claiming that the secretary must submit the draft minutes to the president or the board prior to submitting them at the meeting for approval.

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Our President has, once again, demanded that he/she and his/her Executive Board review and change the minutes.

 

By the way, the board doesn't belong to the president.

 

And, of course, I'm still troubled by the fact that you refuse to acknowledge the president's gender identity. You say that's because it doesn't matter but, instead, your linguistic contortions make it seem like it matters a lot.

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Our President has, once again, demanded that he/she and his/her Executive Board review and change the minutes. He/she has stated that I've made up this part of RONR. I'd like to cite the exact section that allows me the authority to not have Presidents and Executive Board's pre-review or change minutes before they go before the members. 

 

What section would you cite that allows you the authority to not have me review or change minutes before they go before the members? Do you really think you need one?

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By the way, the board doesn't belong to the president.

 

And, of course, I'm still troubled by the fact that you refuse to acknowledge the president's gender identity. You say that's because it doesn't matter but, instead, your linguistic contortions make it seem like it matters a lot.

 

That's because this particular president is an "it".  :)

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The burden of proof is on whoever is claiming that the secretary must submit the draft minutes to the president or the board prior to submitting them at the meeting for approval.

I would make it simple for the President, either she provide some concrete citation that requires the Secretary provide the draft minutes to the President or Board or the minutes don't see the light of day until the General Membership meeting.  Period...end of discussion.

 

Also, agreeing that it is a good time to get a new President (using FAQ #20 if practical)  I would also suggest in the mean time that at the next meeting of the General Membership the members suspend the rules and allow someone else to preside (even if the President is there) which requires a 2/3 vote.  That would seem to serve two purposes.  First, hopefully that will send a strong message that the members will no longer tolerate her running roughshod over them.  Second, by removing her from the chair the members can more easily transact business without having to deal with her trying to exceed her authority (and they can order her removed from the hall for the rest of the meeting if she gets too rambunctious).

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That's because this particular president is an "it".

 

I would make it simple for the President, either she provide some concrete citation . . . 

 

While I appreciate referring to the president as "she", I suspect the president is male and the secretary is female. Not that it matters. Except the secretary thinks it does.

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...

Our President has, once again, demanded that he/she and his/her Executive Board review and change the minutes ...

 

[Nancy N.:]

It occurs to me to point out -- Mr/Ms/Guest Secretary, kindly correct me if I'm mistaken -- that all these demands by the president and/or by the board about reviewing and perverting the minutes must be occuring between meetings; so I'm further assuming that these demands are conveyed by private communication, that most likely by telephone or e-mail.  In which case, I perforce wonder why Guest (at last, a gender-neutral, inoffensive pronoun manque') Secretary does not by this time simply reply, "Mr/Ms/Guest President, take a hike."  It seems called for, by this time.

 

 

[Guest Secretary:]

...  Where do I derive the general case for the Executive Board? .... 

 

 

[Nancy N.:]

P. 482, lines 25 - 29.

 

[Note:  layout is probably messed up.  I have attempted to label the posts.  Apologies.]

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Our President has, once again, demanded that he/she and his/her Executive Board review and change the minutes. He/she has stated that I've made up this part of RONR. I'd like to cite the exact section that allows me the authority to not have Presidents and Executive Board's pre-review or change minutes before they go before the members.

If you read Section 48, "Minutes and Reports of Officers" starting on page 468, and especially "Reading and Approval of the Minutes" starting on  page 473, it should be quite clear that the Secretary prepares the minutes and the assembly approves them.  There is not a word in RONR about the president or anyone else having any right to tinker with the minutes or to see them in advance.    I thought I covered it pretty well in my answer in post # 13, but apparently you are overlooking it or it isn't sinking in.  I don't know what else we can tell you.  We have all told you the same thing....repeatedly.

 

You might also  look at the duties of the secretary starting on page 458.  You do not work for the president and to not have to take orders from the president.  You can tell the president to "get lost".

 

If what RONR  says is not enough, you might just show Mister/Madam President this thread.  Or suggest that "she"  post a question on the subject here herself.  (I think I'm gonna stick with she until informed that "it" isn't a she).

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I alrrady believe RONR does not require the President or the Executive Board to demand review or update of the minutes. If I read correctly, it would be safe to make the following statement:

 

Per RONR p 468 and "Reading and Approval of the Minutes" (p473) the Secretary prepares the minutes and the assembly approves them. RONR authorizes only a limited set of powers to the President and other Officers and reading and approval of the minutes is not one of them.

 

Mr Brown, I understood you (and everyone) the first time. I am simply trying to make a correct assertion so my appeals body can give some authority to my words. As you've all wisely surmised, we have a larger issue which we are resolving via election. Unfortunately our elections can be appealed and the appeal decision can be appealed to higher bodies. As a result, the process of voting the President out of office can take a while. Hopefully this is the last meeting in which this will be an issue unless the appeal of the appeal changes the timeline.

 

I appreciate all the sage advise including the creative use of the next meeting. I will pass this on to our team. I already do regularly ignore the President's demands when they get too caustic. As Nancy has  surmised, the requests come by email and the group cannot conduct business by email at this time.

 

Edgar A, your guesses as to sexes of the players are incorrect. I am amused by all the he/she discussions.

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I alrrady believe RONR does not require the President or the Executive Board to demand review or update of the minutes. If I read correctly, it would be safe to make the following statement:

 

Per RONR p 468 and "Reading and Approval of the Minutes" (p473) the Secretary prepares the minutes and the assembly approves them. RONR authorizes only a limited set of powers to the President and other Officers and reading and approval of the minutes is not one of them.

Not only does RONR not require the president to review or update the minutes, it doesn't even allow it without the secretary's permission or a motion or rule adopted by the assembly.   The board, however, does review and correct the minutes of its own meetings....but only at a meeting.  Not between meetings.

 

Along those lines, I will say what I forgot to say yesterday afternoon, and what I suspect you have already done, but you might point the president to the section in RONR on the "Chairman or President" on pages 448-457.  Pay particular attention to "Administrative Duties of the President of a Society" on page 456 where it says, in part, "All of the duties of the presiding officer described above relate to the function of presiding over the assembly at its meetings. In addition, in many organized societies, the president has duties as an administrative or executive officer; but these are outside the scope of parliamentary law, and the president has such authority only insofar as the bylaws provide it."

 

In short, unless your bylaws give the president such power, she does not have it.

 

Edgar A, your guesses as to sexes of the players are incorrect. I am amused by all the he/she discussions.

Since you haven't commented on or corrected my statement about the sex of the president in the last line of post 64, I'm going to continue referring to the president as "she".   I guess you can tell that the regulars on this forum despise the use of "he/she" or "they" and "them" and "their" when referring to one person.  Flip a coin if you gotta, but let's give the president a sex and stick to it.

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