Guest Ann Macfarlane Posted August 23, 2015 at 07:01 PM Report Share Posted August 23, 2015 at 07:01 PM Dear colleagues, When a member of a body demands that something be put "on the record," I have always assumed that this request lies within the power of the assembly to grant or deny. In other words, the members must vote on whether the statement should be included in the minutes or not. However, I can't find any citation for this in RONR. A difficult board member, prone to making such statements, is asking "where it says that?" Can anyone point me in the right direction, either to specific guidance on this point, or to general guidance about the rights of members and the rights of the body with regard to the content of the minutes/record? With thanks in advance, Ann Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Brown Posted August 23, 2015 at 07:06 PM Report Share Posted August 23, 2015 at 07:06 PM A member has no "right" to have something included in the minutes, but the assembly, by a majority vote, has the final say on what goes in the minutes and can direct the secretary to include something in the minutes at the request of a member. Edited: That question is not addressed directly in RONR, but in his book "Parliamentary Law", published in 1923, General Robert notes on page 499 that it a member wants his vote recorded in the minutes, it may be done by unanimous consent or majority vote. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Harrison Posted August 23, 2015 at 07:07 PM Report Share Posted August 23, 2015 at 07:07 PM Direct the member to RONR pp. 468-471 regarding what should go in the minutes with an emphasis on p. 468 ll. 14-18 which says the minutes reflect what was done at a meeting not what was said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hieu H. Huynh Posted August 23, 2015 at 07:40 PM Report Share Posted August 23, 2015 at 07:40 PM Dear colleagues, When a member of a body demands that something be put "on the record," I have always assumed that this request lies within the power of the assembly to grant or deny. In other words, the members must vote on whether the statement should be included in the minutes or not. However, I can't find any citation for this in RONR. A difficult board member, prone to making such statements, is asking "where it says that?" Can anyone point me in the right direction, either to specific guidance on this point, or to general guidance about the rights of members and the rights of the body with regard to the content of the minutes/record? With thanks in advance, Ann "The basic principle of decision in a deliberative assembly is that, to become the act or choice of the body, a proposition must be adopted by a majority vote" (RONR 11th ed., p. 4, ll. 3-5). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgar Guest Posted August 23, 2015 at 07:50 PM Report Share Posted August 23, 2015 at 07:50 PM A difficult board member, prone to making such statements, is asking "where it says that?" If the difficult board member claims that he has a right to have his comments included in the minutes, the burden of proof is on him to show you the rule that supports his claim. For more on the burden of proof, click here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SaintCad Posted August 24, 2015 at 07:16 PM Report Share Posted August 24, 2015 at 07:16 PM I think the member of the body is confusing RONR with House and Senate rules where items can actually be put in the record viz. the Congressional Record. Ultimately the best recourse would be for a member to raise a Point of Order that such a demand is out of order and as others have said, the member should make a motion and leave it up to the assembly to decide. The chair could do that as well and leave it to the demander to raise an Appeal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gödel Fan Posted August 24, 2015 at 08:11 PM Report Share Posted August 24, 2015 at 08:11 PM This probably falls into the common confusion about minutes. You might give the difficult board member a gift of a small book called "Spotlight on You: The Secretary" that explains the purpose of minutes. If he is a big reader, and you like him enough, you could give him "What Happened At The Meeting?" instead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ann Macfarlane Posted August 24, 2015 at 11:04 PM Report Share Posted August 24, 2015 at 11:04 PM Thank you all for these very helpful comments, which will certainly enable us to deal with this issue! With gratitude, Ann Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shmuel Gerber Posted August 24, 2015 at 11:39 PM Report Share Posted August 24, 2015 at 11:39 PM Dear colleagues, When a member of a body demands that something be put "on the record," I have always assumed that this request lies within the power of the assembly to grant or deny. In other words, the members must vote on whether the statement should be included in the minutes or not. However, I can't find any citation for this in RONR. A difficult board member, prone to making such statements, is asking "where it says that?" Can anyone point me in the right direction, either to specific guidance on this point, or to general guidance about the rights of members and the rights of the body with regard to the content of the minutes/record? With thanks in advance, Ann It's obvious from the rules in RONR about the content of the minutes that an individual member does not have any right to have a statement or paper put on the record. But so far I haven't seen any good citation posted in this thread regarding how the assembly may decide to include the information in the minutes if it chooses to.Maybe it will have better luck in the Advanced Discussion forum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgar Guest Posted August 24, 2015 at 11:55 PM Report Share Posted August 24, 2015 at 11:55 PM Maybe it will have better luck in the Advanced Discussion forum. if you're counting on luck, why not post it in all three fora. Is nothing sacred? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shmuel Gerber Posted August 25, 2015 at 12:04 AM Report Share Posted August 25, 2015 at 12:04 AM if you're counting on luck, why not post it in all three fora. Is nothing sacred? There is probably no need to point out that this does not count as a proper RONR citation. I moved this topic to the Advanced Discussion forum because six regular or semi-regular posters had already replied to the question, which was posted by a seasoned parliamentarian (or by someone posting with the same name as one and who just happened to write "Dear colleagues"), without any of them providing a satisfactory (IMHO) answer with citations to RONR. So it is probably worthy of some advanced discussion. I believe this particular subject has come up before, so maybe what we need is a link to a previous discussion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Harrison Posted August 25, 2015 at 12:08 AM Report Share Posted August 25, 2015 at 12:08 AM How about the member make a request that this information be included in the minutes per RONR p. 299? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hieu H. Huynh Posted August 25, 2015 at 12:11 AM Report Share Posted August 25, 2015 at 12:11 AM I believe this particular subject has come up before, so maybe what we need is a link to a previous discussion. How about this thread? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shmuel Gerber Posted August 25, 2015 at 03:23 AM Report Share Posted August 25, 2015 at 03:23 AM How about the member make a request that this information be included in the minutes per RONR p. 299? How about this thread? Those seem pretty close, maybe as close as we're going to get to a clearly applicable citation.But have no fear; the next edition of RONR should be arriving in about five years, and it's bound to have something more to say on the topic of including additional information in the minutes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Honemann Posted August 25, 2015 at 12:47 PM Report Share Posted August 25, 2015 at 12:47 PM Dear colleagues, When a member of a body demands that something be put "on the record," I have always assumed that this request lies within the power of the assembly to grant or deny. In other words, the members must vote on whether the statement should be included in the minutes or not. However, I can't find any citation for this in RONR. A difficult board member, prone to making such statements, is asking "where it says that?" Can anyone point me in the right direction, either to specific guidance on this point, or to general guidance about the rights of members and the rights of the body with regard to the content of the minutes/record? With thanks in advance, Ann Your assumption that it is within the power of an assembly to grant or deny this sort of request is almost certainly correct, but the exact facts and circumstances will make a difference as to what rules may or may not be applicable. This may be a request falling under the rules at the bottom of page 299, or it may be offered as a garden-variety main motion, or it may be offered as a correction to minutes while they are pending for approval (or maybe something else). There is nothing in RONR indicating that the assembly cannot agree to any of these, or that such agreement will require more than a majority vote. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SaintCad Posted August 25, 2015 at 02:58 PM Report Share Posted August 25, 2015 at 02:58 PM Maybe the best course would be for the body to have an archive or a record wherein items not appropriate for the minutes could be stored such as letters from the national body or promotional flyers the body has made up. Since the items of the archive would be up to the discretion of the body, it would be entirely appropriate for a member to move to enter items into the record. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Brown Posted August 25, 2015 at 04:45 PM Report Share Posted August 25, 2015 at 04:45 PM Maybe the best course would be for the body to have an archive or a record wherein items not appropriate for the minutes could be stored such as letters from the national body or promotional flyers the body has made up. I suspect they already have such an archive. It's commonly referred to as a file. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J. J. Posted August 25, 2015 at 09:43 PM Report Share Posted August 25, 2015 at 09:43 PM Ann, you may wish to look at an article titled, ironically, "On the Record," NP, 4th Quarter, 2000. While it deals with recording of votes, but the same principle would apply to other items. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smb Posted August 31, 2015 at 05:38 PM Report Share Posted August 31, 2015 at 05:38 PM Methinks this thread has focused too much on what properly goes in the minutes and not enough on what the member is requesting. Without questioning motives, we need to acknowledge that sometimes a request to put something in the minutes that RONR would not ordinarily call is perfectly appropriate. It may be to build a complete historical record in case of potential lawsuit, to avoid ambiguity of purpose, or whatever. The proper method for gaining recognition to do so is to rise to a question of privilege (p. 227-228). Although this motion is frequently misused, this would seem to be a perfect application, especially given RONR's suggestion on p. 227 that the motion can be used to ensure the accuracy of the minutes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Honemann Posted August 31, 2015 at 06:02 PM Report Share Posted August 31, 2015 at 06:02 PM Methinks this thread has focused too much on what properly goes in the minutes and not enough on what the member is requesting. Without questioning motives, we need to acknowledge that sometimes a request to put something in the minutes that RONR would not ordinarily call is perfectly appropriate. It may be to build a complete historical record in case of potential lawsuit, to avoid ambiguity of purpose, or whatever. The proper method for gaining recognition to do so is to rise to a question of privilege (p. 227-228). Although this motion is frequently misused, this would seem to be a perfect application, especially given RONR's suggestion on p. 227 that the motion can be used to ensure the accuracy of the minutes. Well, I thought this had been covered by the first sentence in post #15, but maybe not. In any event, legitimate questions of personal privilege are extremely rare, and, in this connection, almost always relate to something recorded in the minutes that is erroneous, and not to a request (or "demand") that something be included that hasn't been. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SaintCad Posted August 31, 2015 at 09:05 PM Report Share Posted August 31, 2015 at 09:05 PM Since we don't know exactly what the member is requesting it is hard to say. The OP says the member is prone to wanting things put on the record so I think this is less of something like asking the actual amounts of annual revenue & expenses in the minutes and more towards wanting his objection to the motion "on the record". Maybe if the OP can give us specifics we may be able to supply some guidance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Honemann Posted August 31, 2015 at 09:18 PM Report Share Posted August 31, 2015 at 09:18 PM Since we don't know exactly what the member is requesting it is hard to say. The OP says the member is prone to wanting things put on the record so I think this is less of something like asking the actual amounts of annual revenue & expenses in the minutes and more towards wanting his objection to the motion "on the record". Maybe if the OP can give us specifics we may be able to supply some guidance. I suspect the "OP" has all the information she sought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Mervosh Posted September 2, 2015 at 03:04 PM Report Share Posted September 2, 2015 at 03:04 PM There is probably no need to point out that this does not count as a proper RONR citation. I moved this topic to the Advanced Discussion forum because six regular or semi-regular posters had already replied to the question, which was posted by a seasoned parliamentarian (or by someone posting with the same name as one and who just happened to write "Dear colleagues"), without any of them providing a satisfactory (IMHO) answer with citations to RONR. So it is probably worthy of some advanced discussion. I believe this particular subject has come up before, so maybe what we need is a link to a previous discussion. Rob Elsman was always fond of giving a very consistent reply to questions that involved a member wanting their dissenting vote recorded in the minutes. The last one I found was this. http://robertsrules.forumflash.com/index.php?/topic/8378-recording-individual-negative-vote-in-minutes/?p=26609 I think he believed there was no satisfactory answer with citations to RONR that would permit this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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