Guest LoganLady

false accusation
Can accuser read accusation and then participate in vote against accused?

51 posts in this topic

HELP!! I'm very new...so I apologize for not understanding correct procedure here.  Problem:  two members of an organization are frequently disruptive and truly want to remove the President and Treasurer so they can take over.  They presented charges - springing the issues at a most inconvenient time.  They asked for the President to resign and the Treasurer to resign as well.

Procedure they followed:  called for a motion, read 32 paged doc pointed at Treasurer.  82 year old Treasurer sat shocked and silent.  The accusers (both) read a 6 paged doc pointed at Pres who sat shocked.  As soon as the readings were done the accusers called for vote.  No opportunity was offered for accused to respond.   The motion to sanction did not pass but it was close.  The ladies who read the accusations did vote but accused were not given an opportunity to did not.  Is it correct to allow accusers who read a written accusation to vote in the motion to proceed?  Can the accusers have unlimited opportunities to repeat charges? If accusers vote why can't accused vote?
Thanks

LoganLady 

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What do your bylaws list as the term of office. Quote the clause exactly. 

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Members do not have the right to read from papers without permission of the assembly, nor do they have the right to unilaterally prefer charges without such a provision in the bylaws. Furthermore, a motion is not before the assembly until the chair puts it there, and members certainly do not have the right to conduct a vote except in very limited circumstances of malfeasance by the chair.

That being said, if your president could summon no more than shocked silence in the face of this onslaught, perhaps it is time for a new president.

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I confess I'm very green at Roberts Rules and very new at this organization.  I appreciate your input J. J. and Guest    This does help me to mull things over.  First of all, the organization is a very old one.  134 years old.  I will transcribe the term of office for the President and Treasurer for you--but it will be in next post.  I am desperate for help because this venerable old organization deserves better.  

Setting the scene:  Once per year there is a National Convention.  The National Convention is the "Supreme Power" (quoted that from the Constitution).  the Convention is taking place this weekend.  The dynamic duo (DD) who want to usurp power and move to take control are more obvious than they realize, but they have a team of minions who will slop up their bathwater and do their bidding.  Both of the DD have previously served as President.  Both are on the organization's Museum Board.  One is also the National Secretary.  The National Secretary DD Board Member is married to a fellow who wants to be the Museum Director.  Museum is chock full of artifacts ripe for swiping.  Not a lot of modern equipment has been utilized so ... I was roped in because I can turn on a laptop and figure out how to google.  Now that we've entered the 19th century with these folks, I have learned the trust factor is beyond any reasonable comprehension.  And in true female middle school mean girl fashion I witnessed exacting proof why I've managed to frump through nearly 70 years of life avoiding such pitfalls as joining organizations.  I'm truly disgusted at this point to stomach the selfish self-serving, self-absorbed attitude of two divas that have little else in life to do than to create mayhem and destruction.  As a woman I'm beyond angry the DD are this brazen.  As a woman Marine (VN) I'm ticked off enough to take care of the DD and enjoy a nice retirement in a comfy 5' x 9' steel apartment with cable television, a bunk bed, and a stack of little debbie snack cakes.  

However I shall attempt to muster my inner happy space and try to figure out how to help my current president and my current treasurer.  Who the ##{{ wants either of those headache jobs anyway?  Actually the young lady (in her 40s) who is President seems to be holding her own.  The one DD is a tiny little yippy-chihuahua type gal that won't let anyone speak so I'm not surprised that neither the Treasurer or Pres could speak.  'twould be an amusing show were it not for the fact the DD and hubs are now poised to swipe every bit of valuable item they can grub....and take the funds too.  

I guess asking here to see if indeed it is kosher for the DD to make all these accusations (all easily proven wrong) and call immediately a vote, and then the DD get to vote, but the accused - Treasurer and Pres, do not.  Cripes I shoulda stayed in the Marines.....easier to deal with messes in that organization.  Somebody raises a contrary head you just shoot em.  

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A member cannot call for a vote.  They can make a motion called Previous Question and upon 2/3 vote THEN the assembly would vote on the original motion.  Second, I suggest you read up on RONR for making Points of Order, the rules of debate and calling members to order (p 645-646).  Also nothing is as powerful as bringing a copy of RONR with you because I will guaranty they will claim that they have the power to do what they want.  They should be challenged by the Chair to point out in the book where they get this power.  It need not be confrontational, merely "What page in the book are you referring to."

 

They can certainly make the same motion again next meeting (note that I did not say that such a motion is in order).  So now is the big question for you.  Is the method for removing an officer in the bylaws?  I'm also confused, were the accused not allowed to vote?  Under whose authority?  EVERY member has a right to vote.

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Dear LoganLady.

I recognize that you, as green, should stick to basics. 

So I'll say, I think JJ's request is overly specific, and "Guest Who's" is kinda uselessly concerned with minutiae that you should not concern yourself with. 

And I regret the appearance of disrespect, but I advise disregarding everything SaintCad said.

Of course you should read RONR, but it's silly to expect that you really can, within six months or so, if you have any other life (which I certainly hope is so.  I would be dismayed to learn that you don't).  I will say that you should get a copy of it, posthaste, and read Chapter Twenty, Disciplinary Procedures, because it is what both your accusers, and their accused, are concerned with. So you really need to know what it says.  And of course you must look at what your bylaws say about disciplinary procedures.

Before that, though, pick up a copy of RONR-In Brief.  And read it at once.  If you go to a bookstore, read it before you leave the store (step away from the cashier so that all the other eager customers have room to stand there and buy their own copies) -- it won't take an hour, this first reading, unless you're a college graduate, in which case they'll lock you in overnight because you're spending more time looking for grammatical errors than trying to get something worthwhile done.

If you order it online or something, read it before you come back from accepting the package at the door. 

-- WHILE you stand there at the door. 

DO NOT come inside and put it down, resolving to read it soon.  That's the kiss-of-death for getting things done.

(I confess that I'm getting more generally into ruminating about how not to not get things done.)

That will help you and your president keep these buccaneers from commandeering your meetings.  It happens that RONR-In Brief does not at all address disciplinary procedures at all, but that's secondary to the question of who runs the meeting:  it is the assembly itself.  DEMOCRACY IS SUPREME.  The assembly is represented by its presiding officer, or chairman (or woman, or block of wood to sit on, which is certainly functional as a chair, but I concede it cannot conduct a meeting ... I'm meandering, I suspect ...), and its meeting is conducted -- presided by -- the presiding officer.

NOT THE PIRATES.

I will add that it's a relief that you dodged a bullet when the motion to remove those officers failed, because if it had prevailed, you would have to wrangle with the procedural question as to whether it had been done legitimately -- i.e., whether those two people were still in office or not.

But for pity's sake, LoganLady, look:  would you play poker without knowing what the rules are?

Would you play baseball or soccer, or even watch it, without knowing what the rules are?

Is the efficient and fair way that your meetings happen any less important?

Edited by Gary c Tesser
Ohh. Great Steaming Cobnuts

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Hey where's the "Like" button?  smiley face?  Thanks Gary c. Tesser, aspiring Parliamentarian and I'll double the offer, pay $9 an hour if you'll just step in the fray and handle this.  I'm not equipped to censor my own mouth...and unfortunately as I age this is a worsening condition.  Fortunately as I get squishier and wrinkled most people overlook this and say it's cute or I'm sassy.  But Chihuahua DD will have one more opportunity to yip yip I believe today.  I was not an invited guest in the first proceedings held exclusively with a grand poo bah group of some name or other that apparently are of exalted station.  While I do whole-heartedly believe RRs are exactly what is needed in life generally speaking, I've led an ignorant life thus far of these mysteries.  I do believe that being said, I'm soooo glad to have fumbled my ignorant way into this forum.  Seems my hunch may be correct that there's sumpin fishy 'bout the whole mess brewing.  I will do my best to get at least Chap XX snagged quickly.  Meanwhile I think I'll also polish my combat boots and sharpen the bayonet.  The one DD is a scrawny little yip yippie and I bet I can sit on her whilst dispatching the chunky one.  

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The first thing you need to do is to become fully familiar with the provisions of this organization's own governing documents (Constitution, Bylaws, or whatever). Have you done that?

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7 hours ago, Gary c Tesser said:

And I regret the appearance of disrespect, but I advise disregarding everything SaintCad said.

So disregard that I answered her question (can a member call for a vote because you know one of the people "Called the Question") and told her what the actual motion was so she can look it up?

Disregard that she should bring a copy of the book to the meeting to use as a reference?

Disregard that when one of the bulldozers claim a power as per RONR (which we can safely assume is a power that doesn't really exist) that the Chair should ask them to specify what rule gives them the power?

 

Why should my entire answer be thrown out?  No offense but your answer is hey go buy a book that doesn't answer your specific question on discipline procedure. 

 

 

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I have indeed read the Constitution cover to cover. In fact as the defacto web master (HA!) of this group of little old ladies I've typed a great deal of it into word docs for placement in the brand spanking new website not yet published.....did I "get it"??? Newp.  I am simply flummoxed with the perceived rules that aren't rules and when I try to find out how things are going...try learning the procedures ... something changes--or at least I think they do.

I'm most hung up in this procedural stuff.  I understand the rule and regs and constitution, but I can't quite grasp why they seem to change horses mid stream and up stream and in the desert and on the grassy knoll.  Example:  The DD yip yippee Chihuahua hollers POINT OF ORDER each and every time someone gets to saying something she dislikes.  Now again, my solution would be a tad more direct and barbaric but very effective.  I don't get it that she can get away with the interruptions.  I suggested to the Pres in a polite text message to use the gavel on a hard surface and that Chihuahua's head would do nicely.  I advised she stand tall and tell these people how the cow ate the cabbage and shut up and listen and then they could ask questions.  I am not at the latest meeting--as it is held during the time I am (Thank Providence) working.  I'm getting updates from excited little old ladies asking MOI for advice.   Poor gals are in for it eh?

I believe there's so many laws broken by the takeover DD led by Chihuahua that they really should use their energy and time packing for a flight to someplace unknown.  As I read what has taken place I'm in a virtual front row seat watching two people about to be audited by the IRS and certainly have some City officials, a Teamsters Union and untold others looking at them with sideways glances.  Where's Hoffa when you really need him....

Anyway I appreciate any and all advice in how to use the darn RR book for more than beaning it off the  hard heads of the DD and company.  It is refreshing to have a good debate go on without personal attacks (or at least I don't HEAR the yip yips)

 

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19 hours ago, J. J. said:

What do your bylaws list as the term of office. Quote the clause exactly. 

 

18 hours ago, LoganLady said:

 I will transcribe the term of office for the President and Treasurer for you--but it will be in next post.  I am desperate for help because this venerable old organization deserves better.  

 

 

5 hours ago, Daniel H. Honemann said:

The first thing you need to do is to become fully familiar with the provisions of this organization's own governing documents (Constitution, Bylaws, or whatever). Have you done that?

 

16 minutes ago, LoganLady said:

I have indeed read the Constitution cover to cover.

 

Okay, so then I suppose you can respond to J.J., and transcribe for him the term of office for the President and Treasurer, as promised.

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Chapter IV  National Convention

Article I

The Supreme power of the [ organization ] is in the National Convention.

Article II

Section 1  The National Convention shall consist of:

A.  The National President, Past National Presidents, Past National Vice Presidents, Past National Secretaries, Past National Treasurers, so long as they remain in good standing in their respective [ name of subsidiary group of National ] or are members-at-large, and National Officers listed in Article V Sect 2 of this chapter

B.  All Department, National [name of subsidiary group of National] and Provisional Officers elected and appointed

C.  Past Department Presidents belonging to National Corps carry their honors as long as they are in good standing.

D.  Past Department Presidents and Past National [name of subsidiary group of National] Presidents who have served a full term, or who have been elected to fill a vacancy and shall have served six months, so long as they remain in good standing in their several Corps.

E.  One delegate-at-large from each Department, Provisional Department, National [name of subsidiary group of National] and the group known as Members-at-large whatever its membership, one delegate for each ten (10) members and one additional delegate for a final fraction of more than one-half of that number in good standing at the close of the first quarter ending March 31.  Such delegates to be elected at the Department Convention (National [name of subsidiary group of National] meeting) at the same time as electing Department Convention (National [name of subsidiary group of National]) officers.  The Membership-At-Large delegates are to be elected by the National Council at the second Council meeting.  Vacancies of elected delegates may be filled by the Department or National [name of subsidiary group of National] representatives present at the National Convention.  

The alternate-delegate-at-large shall be entitled to a seat only in the absence of the delegate-at-large.  Should a vacancy occur too late to be filled by the Department Council, the first delegate present performs the duty of delegate-at-large.

Section 2 That we count all members with their Departments or National [name of subsidiary group of National] at National Roll Call as all National Officers and Past National Presidents belong to a Department or National [name of subsidiary group of National]  Members-at-large are counted as their own group.

Section 3.  Each Department or National [name of subsidiary group of National] shall have the power to decide in what manner the Delegates and Alternates to National Convention shall be elected, understanding always, if there be one dissenting vote, they cannot be elected collectively on one ballot.

Section 4.  Each Department and National [name of subsidiary group of National] shall also elect at the same time and in the same manner an equal number of alternates including an alternate-at-large.  Only the above officers and delegates, or their alternates, shall be admitted to seats except as provided in Chap III, Art VI, Sect. 3.

 

....taking a break....

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Article III   DUES

Section 1.  The National Convention will assess a per capita tax on each Department of {   $   } per annum and on each National [name of subsidiary of National ] of { $ } per annum on each and every member therein, payable in quarterly installments, to be forwarded by Department/National [name of subsidiary] President to the National Secretary, payable to the order of the National Treasurer (who shall receipt therefore) on or before the twentieth day of January, April, July, and October.  The amount of quarterly tax due from each Department/National [name of subsidiaryshall be determined by the number of members therein on the first day of the current quarter as reported by the Department Secretary.  Members-at-large dues - see pg () Section (  )

 

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Article IV

Section 1.  There shall be an annual meeting at a location decided by vote of a previous Convention.

Section 2.  Special meeting of the National Convention may be called by the National President, by and with the advice and consent of the National Council, and no business shall be transacted except that specified in the call.  No alterations affecting the general interests of the Order shall be made at a special meeting

Section 3.  Consideration is given to again join with the (really long name of an old organization that now has several offshoots) for the Annual Convention with reservations as to the order of details.

*I've only seen section 3 done once---last year

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All that was requested was that portion of the Constitution or Bylaws which specifies the term of office. For example, here is what the sample bylaws in RONR provide in this connection:

"Section 3. Ballot Election, Term of Office, Removal from Office. The officers shall be elected by ballot to serve for one year or until their successors are elected, and their term of office shall begin at the close of the annual meeting at which they are elected. Officers may be removed from office at the pleasure of the membership as provided in the parliamentary authority." 

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2 hours ago, Daniel H. Honemann said:

Okay, so then I suppose you can respond to J.J., and transcribe for him the term of office for the President and Treasurer, as promised.

C' mon, LoganLady, work with us here.

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9 hours ago, LoganLady said:

I was not an invited guest in the first proceedings held exclusively with a grand poo bah group of some name or other that apparently are of exalted station.

Baby steps:  what kind of meeting was this, please?

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update:  DD have been sliced and diced.  Yay team    a wonderful win for the good guys.   

I'll update here shortly.  I can't respond quickly as I am trying to field a lot of worried white haired and knuckled ladies.  

This meeting is the National Convention described in the first part above.  It's the "Supreme Power" and the biggest issue is the confirmation or removal of a self-proclaimed leader of the organization's very old and chock-full-o-artifacts museum.  Dude that squatted at the museum - was supported by the DD, one of which was his wife.  So many layers to this rotten onion.  I still say my method would have saved a lot of problems. 

 

The meeting was a component of the National Convention. The component in which the DD laid into the National Pres. And Treasurer was a meeting of the National Council, and should have been dedicated to discussion (as I understand) of what subjects were to be covered in the next portions of the Convention.  YipYip Chihuahua was hollering POINT OF ORDER repeatedly and finally presented (described to me) with great flourish two documents to the Council.  Yip Yip is an attorney in real life -- and likes to Perry Mason folks and do gotchas.  Her documents were false accusations - nothing of substance, but she managed to rope her buddies into say Yes yes yes boss...and the group snowed over the meek members sitting aghast at the drive by....and there was in the end a call for a vote right after the "charges" were read.  No opportunity granted for the accused to defend or speak AT ALL.  They tried to speak and to her credit the sassy 80 year old managed to get a few verbal jabs in.  But the DD hollered I guess thinking that if they did the steamroll and removed the current Pres and treasurer by making some sort of lame charge and it stuck they'd not have to deal with any opposition the remainder of the conference.  

They did not allow any rebuttal or defense.  The DD got to vote - making 2 votes to do some mojo against the Pres and Treas, and they orchestrated three pals to vote with them.  So the council had a presence of 13 persons:  

1. Dynamic Duo person 1 = wife of despot the group was trying to get moved into position in museum

2.Dynamic Duo person 2 = Yip Yip Chihuahua attorney  with loud mouth (I still think I can take her)

3. Person of some sort of name I cannot recall - no personality, but follows Yip yip like a minion

4. Person who happens to be long-time member, aged 90, can't hear and goes along with Yip Yip 

5. Person who is oblivious to everything and everyone but scared spitless of Yip Yip

6.  Person almost carbon copy of # 5 but afraid of everyone

7. Person who has a spine and knows full well what's up

8. Person who is does have a spinal column if you look, and will stand on her own, but won't venture too far...but she's smart enough to think on her own

9. Person that is fed up with the lot of them and wants to send some to burn in ...... and would likely assist in transport if offered an opportunity

10. Person similar to # 7 but somewhat leans like # 8

11. Person similar to 10

12 Pres

13 Treas

So when DD (1 and 2) read the documents, and immediately started polling, 1 through 5 INCLUDING DD voted to oust pres and treas and make charges stick.  # 6 person abstained.  Persons 7 through 11 voted abso freaking loootly no they will not charge pres and treas.  Persons 12 and 13 - Pres and Treas - were refused chance to vote, and this after denial of opportunity to defend.  Vote total was 5 to hang em, 5 to free them, one abstain.  2 not given opportunity to vote.  

I'm aghast that the whole thing took place, but I'm also familiar enough with the venomous yip yip to understand why folks might be bulldozed.  

Again, I'll get back to this and do my best to respond to your questions.   I hope I've answered the question on what type/kind of meeting.  If not, I need to crawl and baby steps are not possible.  

Job descriptions....coming soon and the terms of office....but I figured the info on how the Supreme Power of Convention was crucial info to include first.

 

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(Jumping ahead.  I haven't read any of this thread for a while. And maybe I won't, not for a while yet.  I'm recovering from 11 hours of Breaking Bad marathon yesterday. 

(But myghod. 

(I so love this website.)

Edited by Gary c Tesser
tinkering

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Article VI Election of Officers

Section 1

Th National officers of the {x}  (except the National Secretary, National Inspector, National Counselor, National Field Officer, National Press Correspondent and National Senior Aid who are appointed by the National President) shall be elected annually at the National Convention by written or a printed ballot unless such ballot is dispensed with by unanimous consent.  The three members elected by the National Convention annually constitute the Executive Board for the year, of which the Chairman shall be elected first, the other two members shall be elected collectively, on on ballot - numbered according to votes received.  To be elected to an office in the {x}, one must be present to give consent or give consent through a letter.  

Section 2

An elected Chairman or member of a National Committee may succeed herself on the same Committee for more than two terms

Section 3

The order of installation is:

A.  All newly elected Officers including the Executive Board

B.  All appointive Officers

C.  All newly elected National Committee Members

These officers shall enter upon their respective duties immediately following their installation, and hold office until their successors are installed.  National Committee members shall assume their respective duties immediately after their installation.  The outgoing President, Secretary and Treasurer are to close out all convention expenses only.

Section 4.

Vacancies occurring in National elective offices (other than as provided for in Art VII Sect 2 of this Chapter) shall be filled by the National Council either at a special meeting or by acquiescence of the recommendation of the National President by two-thirds of the Council.

Section 5.

That the candidate for National Treasurer must furnish a statement of her bookkeeping training and experience in such work before the election for that officer is held.  That a committee of Past National Presidents is appointed by the National President, approved by the Finance Committee, empowered to investigate qualifications of a candidate before the election of a National Treasurer.

.....

Article XIII  VOTING

Each representative present at a meeting of the National Convention shall be entitled to one vote.  Members entitled to representation by virtue of past office shall be entitled to but one vote.  The ayes and noes may be required and entered upon the record at the call of any three members representing different Departments.

.....

I'll type the article for discipline, etc.but 'term of office' - if the definition of the term is length, that is as described in each position, yearly for the principals, with Board members (museum) in positions of one- or three-year terms. 

 

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On 8/7/2017 at 7:41 PM, Gary c Tesser said:

(Jumping ahead.  I haven't read any of this thread for a while. And maybe I won't, not for a while yet.  I'm recovering from 11 hours of Breaking Bad marathon yesterday. 

(But myghod. 

(I so love this website.)

I'm just waiting until someone tells me what to delete, 'cause I have no intention of reading this stuff. :-)

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you the admin I suppose have the right and perhaps duty to delete it all.  I admit I jumped in uninvited driven by desperate hopes of saving a couple gals from being verbally assaulted by a twit of a human whose life is obviously driven by self absorbed focus on minutia.  I came here seeking a learned adviser -- I wanted help to fight a technical move or tactical one that very evil folks employed in their attempt to gain power over a 134 year old museum and a pittance of investments of the old organization.  

It certainly appears to be a heinous error of judgment on my part asking here for an answer, though a few have been at least light-hearted.  Some responses were very helpful, some came crushing in peppering with vague questions, others with specific ones, another took offense, and still there are those personalities who feel impelled to make public display of middle school bully approach.

As I said....never cared for joining....except where it really did count and when it meant looking at something and asking myself if it was bigger than me.  Seems this forum does have all sorts...and Schmuel you should do whatever you think your title, duty, feelings, etc. drive you to do.  Delete away since it is after all your duty as admin to rise above things and as Solomon would, determine the wise way and proceed.  

Thanks to SaintCad and Gary Tesser for at least lending an ear, offering help....and just fyi:  we the good guys won.  The museum is saved at least for the most part, though pillaging did take place.  A legacy of artifacts has suffered some irreparable harm but will crawl back to wholeness and begin again, sans the few horrid folks who thought of themselves as more important than the objects left in our care.  Thankfully at least most of the collection will be here after all of us are smaller than the tiny dot I end my dreaded presence with here.

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12 hours ago, Daniel H. Honemann said:

All that was requested was that portion of the Constitution or Bylaws which specifies the term of office. For example, here is what the sample bylaws in RONR provide in this connection:

"Section 3. Ballot Election, Term of Office, Removal from Office. The officers shall be elected by ballot to serve for one year or until their successors are elected, and their term of office shall begin at the close of the annual meeting at which they are elected. Officers may be removed from office at the pleasure of the membership as provided in the parliamentary authority." 

LoganLady, please, let me also emphatically request this.  Look: we, here on The World's Pre-Eminent Parliamentary Internet Forum (Reg. Penna. Dept. Agr.), mostly want to help.  Mr Honemann gets grumpy when pollyannas like me treat the place like what the Brits call an agony column, but you know what, if they don't want to read it, they can go on to the next post, like, Can The President Vote?, and yadda yadda.

 

1 hour ago, LoganLady said:

National Secretary, National Inspector, National Counselor, National Field Officer, National Press Correspondent and National Senior Aid who are appointed by the National President)

Great Steaming Cobnuts.  Why don't you have a National Senior Executive Nostril while you're at it?

 

1 hour ago, Shmuel Gerber said:

I'm just waiting until someone tells me what to delete, 'cause I have no intention of reading this stuff. :-)

You do know that I really, really, really object to the censoring.  But you also should know that I read it all so that you don't have to.

 

5 minutes ago, LoganLady said:

It certainly appears to be a heinous error of judgment on my part asking here for an answer,

No, it wasn't at all.  LoganLady, please stay.  I had to go out (to visit with a ten-year-old Canadian girl and a 70-year-old American woman).  And I been sick.  But I'm still typing.

Your fan,

Gary c Tesser

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(O, and I addressed "your fan" to LoganLady, not to you grumpy guys.)
Your fan,

Gary c Tesser

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