Meeting Questions

[Guest Destiny]

I have two questions from my last meeting. There was a Board member who wanted to make a correction to the meeting and the president shut it down. Does the president have the power to do this? Should this have been debated?

Also, when giving the officer report, the same member was called out of order. Can someone be called out of order during their officer report or are they allowed to give their full report without being told to stay germaine?

Thank you.

[Richard Brown]

We need a little more information and a clarification on your first statement.

As to the first statement, did the board member want to make a correction to the meeting?   Or to the minutes?  If to the meeting, please explain what you mean.

As to the second question, we need to do what he was saying or doing, specifically, that called him to be out of order?  Also, who called him out of order?  The  chair?   Another member? 

[Joshua Katz]

I don't know what you mean by "correction to the meeting."  I'm also not sure what the president "shut down."  Most likely, the president didn't have the power to do whatever he did, but definitions of these terms would help.  

An officer is capable of violating the rules of order during a report.  For example, it would violate the rules of decorum to use the officer's report to attack people.  If the officer violates rules during his report, he should be called to order.

[Guest Destiny]

1 hour ago, Richard Brown said:

We need a little more information and a clarification on your first statement.

As to the first statement, did the board member want to make a correction to the meeting?   Or to the minutes?  If to the meeting, please explain what you mean.

As to the second question, we need to do what he was saying or doing, specifically, that called him to be out of order?  Also, who called him out of order?  The  chair?   Another member? 

During the approval of minutes, a board member wanted to make corrections to the minutes, my apologies. This Is a student government board and the secretary set a deadline to send reports for the minutes and this board member sent the report a few hours late because they said they had a final. So they tried to reason with the secretary and the president said the secretary was in the right but the board member can submit the report for next minutes. 

During the report, the board member was speaking to the minutes. They said they felt that their report should have been included in the minutes. The president told them to stay Germaine and the secretary called them out of order because the board member was “targeting the fact that the secretary didn’t put the report on the minutes”. 

[Joshua Katz]

Well, there's quite a bit wrong here.  First, when minutes are being approved, they are amendable.  Unless your rules say otherwise, the secretary cannot set a deadline to amend the minutes, because the assembly has the right to amend them.  (In fact, that's about all the assembly can do - it's not as if they can refuse to approve the minutes.  That's why the proper procedure is for the chair to ask for corrections, and once all corrections have been handled, to declare the minutes approved.)  But reports do not belong in the minutes - they are filed with the minutes, but aren't part of the minutes.  The minutes are a record of what happened at the meeting - i.e. what actions were taken.  By definition, reports delivered after the meeting are not what happened at the meeting.

Whether or not complaining about the minutes during an officer report is germane is pretty fact-specific and should be handled when it happens.  Remember that the ruling of the chair can be appealed.  However, it's a little silly to claim that talking about the contents of the minutes is "targeting" the fact that the secretary didn't put it there.  "This should be in the minutes," even when incorrect, is not an insult.  Finally, the secretary can raise a point of order like anyone else, but can't decide unilaterally that the member's comments are out of order - that's what the chair is for, and ultimately the assembly, not the secretary.

[Richard Brown]

Johshua Katz said what i wanted to say a few minutes ago, but I was on my cell phone and it would be too much typing for that tiny keyboard.  And voice-to-text doesn't work much better!

The one thing I would add to Joshua's comments is that normally reports do not go in the minutes but should be in writing filed for record and available for inspection by members.  There are a few specific situations where very brief verbal reports can be given and should be in the minutes.  Those are summarized on page 511-519 and pages 525-527.   Most reports should be in writing.  Unfortunately, people have gotten lazy and tend to give verbal reports when they actually should be in writing.

There is frequently disagreement on this board as to when a report can be given orally and whether the secretary must report it verbatim in the minutes.  Your organization has the right to decide whether and how and to what extent oral reports will be reported in the minutes.... or even whether to permit them at all.

[Setemu]

Also, in the case where minutes are approved and an "error or material omission" is "reasonable established after their approval," the minutes can be amended after they are adopted by  Amend Something Previously Adopted (2/3-vote, or majority with notice, or majority of entire membership, or unanimous consent) (p. 475). 

[Josh Martin]

11 hours ago, Guest Destiny said:

During the approval of minutes, a board member wanted to make corrections to the minutes, my apologies. This Is a student government board and the secretary set a deadline to send reports for the minutes and this board member sent the report a few hours late because they said they had a final. So they tried to reason with the secretary and the president said the secretary was in the right but the board member can submit the report for next minutes. 

Reports should not be included in the minutes at all (except for very brief oral reports or reports which are adopted in their entirety, neither of which appears to apply here). The minutes are a record of what was done at a meeting, not what was said.

The reports of boards, officers, and committees are also part of the Secretary’s records, but they are not part of the minutes. The Secretary does not have the authority to set a deadline for such reports, although the assembly may do so if it wishes.

11 hours ago, Guest Destiny said:

During the report, the board member was speaking to the minutes. They said they felt that their report should have been included in the minutes. The president told them to stay Germaine and the secretary called them out of order because the board member was “targeting the fact that the secretary didn’t put the report on the minutes”. 

The chairman is correct that the question of whether the report should be included in the minute was not germane to the report itself. If the member wishes for the report to be included in the minutes, he should have made a motion to that effect, although in my opinion, members should not have voted in favor of such a motion as reports should not be included in the minutes. Alternatively, the member could have moved that his report be filed with the reports for the current meeting.

10 hours ago, Richard Brown said:

There is frequently disagreement on this board as to when a report can be given orally and whether the secretary must report it verbatim in the minutes.  Your organization has the right to decide whether and how and to what extent oral reports will be reported in the minutes.... or even whether to permit them at all.

So far as RONR is concerned, oral reports are only given in very specific circumstances (listed on the pages you have cited), and such reports are included in the minutes. Even if the assembly permits other reports to be given orally, the Secretary is under no obligation to record those reports, unless so ordered by the assembly.

It appears to me, however, that the report in question was in writing, but was not submitted by the deadline imposed by the Secretary.

1 hour ago, Setemu said:

Also, in the case where minutes are approved and an "error or material omission" is "reasonable established after their approval," the minutes can be amended after they are adopted by  Amend Something Previously Adopted (2/3-vote, or majority with notice, or majority of entire membership, or unanimous consent) (p. 475). 

Certainly, but based on the facts presented so far, there does not appear to be any reason that the member’s report should be included in the minutes.

[Setemu]

19 minutes ago, Josh Martin said:

Certainly, but based on the facts presented so far, there does not appear to be any reason that the member’s report should be included in the minutes.

Edited to add: Now I see it. Disregard (I would delete this post if I could).

The chair stated the report can be included in the next minutes, because it was submitted too late to be included in the minutes of the meeting in which the report was delivered. I assume the meeting under discussion has already passed (it was the "last meeting"), and I believe it reasonable therefore to assume that the report was not allowed into the minutes of the meeting in question as the member asking for it to be so was called out of order for that request; so, I am advising that the member called out of order (edited to add: may move at the next meeting) to ASPA to have it included in the previous minutes. Would you advise against this? 

 

Edited April 17, 2018 at 02:10 PM by Setemu

[Josh Martin]

3 minutes ago, Setemu said:

The chair stated the report can be included in the next minutes, because it was submitted too late to be included in the minutes of the meeting in which the report was delivered. I assume the meeting under discussion has already passed (it was the "last meeting"), and I believe it reasonable therefore to assume that the report was not allowed into the minutes of the meeting in question as the member asking for it to be so was called out of order for that request; so, I am advising that the member called out of order (edited to add: may move at the next meeting) to ASPA to have it included in the previous minutes. Would you advise against this?

Yes, because as I have previously noted, reports shouldn’t be included in the minutes. The assembly should use this situation as a learning opportunity to stop bogging down their minutes with unnecessary information.

[Setemu]

6 minutes ago, Josh Martin said:

Yes, because as I have previously noted, reports shouldn’t be included in the minutes. The assembly should use this situation as a learning opportunity to stop bogging down their minutes with unnecessary information.

Yes.  I had temporarily confused being "in the minutes" with being "attached to the minutes."

[Josh Martin]

2 minutes ago, Setemu said:

Yes.  I had temporarily confused being "in the minutes" with being "attached to the minutes."

I think it would be perfectly appropriate for the member to make a motion ordering that his report be filed with the other reports of the meeting in question, and I think a majority vote would suffice, since nothing has been previously adopted on this subject.