" Rewriting by-laws"

[Guest farmersdaughter]

As I get deeper into the POA it has been brought to my attention that the by-laws are out dated. Of course I realize alot of the talk is because the membership has the board on the run! I looked back to the mintues of the meeting and found that a by-law committee was formed over 2 years ago. I approached the "Self appointed chairman" of the committee and ask where the work on the committee stands. She said they just thought that a whole new set of by-laws should be written and just adopted instead if trying to admend the current ones.She said she had one meeting last Oct and gave out copies of the current by-laws to have "her committee" look over it and submit changes however nothing has been turned in. She said , it takes 3 meetings to amend / change or rewrite in the by-laws. Now I read over the current by-law and it does not address how to submit or go about the changes. If I understand RRO we the membership without a committee can make motions to change the by-laws. First we must sent out notifcation prior to the meeting of submitted changes and then we are to read it into the minutes of the next meeting. Now can we then vote on it if proir notification is made or must we wait for another meeting. Please someone help me I really know I am in over my head...

[George Mervosh]

Given the number of questions you've been posting (which is not a bad thing by the way) it might not be a bad idea to hire someone to help your society do a proper revision to fit the society's needs:

Contact either (or both) the ...

National Association of Parliamentarians

213 South Main St.

Independence, MO 64050-3850

Phone: 888-627-2929

Fax: 816-833-3893;

e-mail: hq@NAP2.org

<<www.]parliamentarians.org>>

or

American Institute of Parliamentarians

550M Ritchie Highway #271

Severna Park, MD 21146

Phone: 888-664-0428

Fax: 410-544-4640

e-mail: aip@parliamentaryprocedure.org

<<www.parliamentaryprocedure.org>>

for a reference or information.

There are also individuals out there that are truly expert parliamentarians, but not members of either group. I don't know of a list or ranking of them.

[Guest Heloise]

Given the number of questions you've been posting (which is not a bad thing by the way) it might not be a bad idea to hire someone to help your society do a proper revision to fit the society's needs:

Contact either (or both) the ...

National Association of Parliamentarians

213 South Main St.

Independence, MO 64050-3850

Phone: 888-627-2929

Fax: 816-833-3893;

e-mail: hq@NAP2.org

<<www.]parliamentarians.org>>

or

American Institute of Parliamentarians

550M Ritchie Highway #271

Severna Park, MD 21146

Phone: 888-664-0428

Fax: 410-544-4640

e-mail: aip@parliamentaryprocedure.org

<<www.parliamentaryprocedure.org>>

for a reference or information.

There are also individuals out there that are truly expert parliamentarians, but not members of either group. I don't know of a list or ranking of them.

I move this information become FAQ #21.

[hmtcastle]

Given the number of questions you've been posting (which is not a bad thing by the way) it might not be a bad idea . . .

. . . to stop being a "Guest". You won't get any unwanted phone calls or knocks on the door. At least not until the Robert's Witnesses start selling the 11th Edition.

[hmtcastle]

I move this information become FAQ #21.

First of all it has to get in line behind "spouses on board" and a whole host of other frequently asked questions.

Secondly, The Wrathful One appears not to be impressed with credentials, whether those papers indicate that you're certified, registered, spayed, or neutered.

[Trina]

As I get deeper into the POA it has been brought to my attention that the by-laws are out dated. Of course I realize alot of the talk is because the membership has the board on the run! I looked back to the mintues of the meeting and found that a by-law committee was formed over 2 years ago. I approached the "Self appointed chairman" of the committee and ask where the work on the committee stands. She said they just thought that a whole new set of by-laws should be written and just adopted instead if trying to admend the current ones.She said she had one meeting last Oct and gave out copies of the current by-laws to have "her committee" look over it and submit changes however nothing has been turned in. She said , it takes 3 meetings to amend / change or rewrite in the by-laws. Now I read over the current by-law and it does not address how to submit or go about the changes. If I understand RRO we the membership without a committee can make motions to change the by-laws. First we must sent out notifcation prior to the meeting of submitted changes and then we are to read it into the minutes of the next meeting. Now can we then vote on it if proir notification is made or must we wait for another meeting. Please someone help me I really know I am in over my head...

The 3 meetings rule isn't from RONR. I don't remember if you've already picked up a copy of RONR, but you should read the part on amending bylaws if your bylaws are silent on the process for amendment. See pp. 562-563.

A revision (which is technically a form of amendment) is the name for replacing the old bylaws with a completely new version. 'Changes of the bylaws that are so extensive and general that they are scattered throughout the bylaws should be effected through the substitution of an entirely new set of bylaws, called a revision. Notice of such a revision is notice that a new document will be submitted that will be open to amendment as fully as if the society were adopting bylaws for the first time.' (RONR, top of p. 575)

Thus, if you go the revision route, the scope of possible amendment is far more sweeping than if you send out notice of individual proposed amendments.

[Trina]

... spayed, or neutered.

Yikes, that's sure to get those frequent 'guests' to become 'members'...

[hmtcastle]

Notice of such a revision is notice that a new document will be submitted that will be open to amendment as fully as if the society were adopting bylaws for the first time.' (RONR, top of p. 575)

Or, as I like to put it, notice of a revision (regardless of how extensive the eventual changes are) removes the "scope of the notice" limitation.

[Guest farmerdaughter]

. . . to stop being a "Guest". You won't get any unwanted phone calls or knocks on the door. At least not until the Robert's Witnesses start selling the 11th Edition.

n

I am sorry I did not know I was upsetting anyone with all the question. I was directed to this web site, I was told " They love to help and no question is dumB" quess I was mislead....

[Guest farmersdaughter]

The 3 meetings rule isn't from RONR. I don't remember if you've already picked up a copy of RONR, but you should read the part on amending bylaws if your bylaws are silent on the process for amendment. See pp. 562-563.

A revision (which is technically a form of amendment) is the name for replacing the old bylaws with a completely new version. 'Changes of the bylaws that are so extensive and general that they are scattered throughout the bylaws should be effected through the substitution of an entirely new set of bylaws, called a revision. Notice of such a revision is notice that a new document will be submitted that will be open to amendment as fully as if the society were adopting bylaws for the first time.' (RONR, top of p. 575)

Thus, if you go the revision route, the scope of possible amendment is far more sweeping than if you send out notice of individual proposed amendments.

Did order RRO brief and I was also told to get a book on writing/amending by-laws so I ordered that also. I know how to run a meeting agenda ect however the rest of this is really pulling me down . Thanks for being so kind.

[hmtcastle]

I am sorry I did not know I was upsetting anyone with all the question. I was directed to this web site, I was told " They love to help and no question is dumB" quess I was mislead....

By "stop being a "Guest" (note the quotation marks and capitalization) I simply meant to suggest you become a registered member. I apologize for the misunderstanding.

[David A Foulkes]

By "stop being a "Guest" (note the quotation marks and capitalization) I simply meant to suggest you become a registered member. I apologize for the misunderstanding.

Benefits of membership:

1. You get to post a picture, of yourself or some other design that you like

2. You can update your "status"

3. You can create a "signature" to be included in all posts

4. You can add a brief "About Me" section to your profile

5. Your post count gets accumulated

6. You are automatically entered into a drawing to receive a free copy of the RONR 11 Edition

7. ..... and more, like:

8. You can edit your posts and fix all those typos Gary T. is famous for :-) (thanks Mr. MtC)

9. You can see, in one place, all of the posts you have written, so you don't have to go hunting for all of the answers others have given you (thanks Matt S)

Sign up today - it's fast, fun, and free!

[hmtcastle]

7. ..... and more.

Like being able to edit posts . . . even after others have replied to them! No more "not holes".

[Matt Schafer]

Farmersdaughter,

Is a POA a type of homeowners or condominium association? I've heard of COA and HOA, but POA is new to me.

You mentioned that you have read through all of your bylaws, and they don't say anything about how to amend. So at this point, if your bylaws already use Robert's Rules of Order, then you follow the process outlined in RONR (the big book). (RONR In Brief doesn't go into the details about bylaw changes.) In addition to the page references that Trina mentioned, Section 57 (pp. 573-580) specifically deals with the entire process of amending or revising the bylaws.

(And if, in fact, your bylaws don't say anything about the requirements for amendment, that should be one of the things you add.)

But if your POA is like a homeowners or condominium association, you may also want to consult with a lawyer. These types of organizations have legal requirements and pages of law that govern them. (I'm on a condo association board, and we're dealing with this stuff right now, too.)

As for all of your questions, I think that's great. You obviously care enough about your organization to learn and get involved. Ask all you want. I think Mr. Mountcastle's point is that if you register your email address on the web site here, you get a few benefits. The one I like the most is that you can see, in one place, all of the posts you have written, so you don't have to go hunting for all of the answers others have given you. All in one place.

[Guest farmersdaughter]

Farmersdaughter,

Is a POA a type of homeowners or condominium association? I've heard of COA and HOA, but POA is new to me.

You mentioned that you have read through all of your bylaws, and they don't say anything about how to amend. So at this point, if your bylaws already use Robert's Rules of Order, then you follow the process outlined in RONR (the big book). (RONR In Brief doesn't go into the details about bylaw changes.) In addition to the page references that Trina mentioned, Section 57 (pp. 573-580) specifically deals with the entire process of amending or revising the bylaws.

(And if, in fact, your bylaws don't say anything about the requirements for amendment, that should be one of the things you add.)

But if your POA is like a homeowners or condominium association, you may also want to consult with a lawyer. These types of organizations have legal requirements and pages of law that govern them. (I'm on a condo association board, and we're dealing with this stuff right now, too.)

As for all of your questions, I think that's great. You obviously care enough about your organization to learn and get involved. Ask all you want. I think Mr. Mountcastle's point is that if you register your email address on the web site here, you get a few benefits. The one I like the most is that you can see, in one place, all of the posts you have written, so you don't have to go hunting for all of the answers others have given you. All in one place.

POA is a Property Owners Association. I called the local book store about RRO and OMG there was several ones can someone please tell me which one to get. Tell me exactly what to ask for. I really do appreciate all the help I have received so far... Thank You.

[Trina]

n

I am sorry I did not know I was upsetting anyone with all the question. I was directed to this web site, I was told " They love to help and no question is dumB" quess I was mislead....

As I hope you understand now, Mr. Mountcastle's comment was meant as an invitation, not a rejection.

Please keep asking questions. It is actually a pleasure to have a visitor come back and post sensible follow-up questions (rather than post once and disappear without another word, which is quite common).

If you stick around long enough, you'll certainly get an occasional sarcastic (or humorous, at your expense) comment -- but don't let it get to you .

[Trina]

...I called the local book store about RRO and OMG there was several ones can someone please tell me which one to get. Tell me exactly what to ask for...

Go to the 'RONR Home' link at the top of the page. There are a bunch of pictures of the book on that home page. Also, in the left margin (which is blue, at least in my browser window), the third line down says 'The Right Book' -- click on that for more info.

[farmersdaughter]

Thank You !! I ordered it off line. It should be waiting on me when I return from vacation. Thanks again for all the help... I just started to feel silly asking all the questions. However my grandpa always said if you dont ask you dont own.

[David A Foulkes]

Thank You !! I ordered it off line. It should be waiting on me when I return from vacation. Thanks again for all the help... I just started to feel silly asking all the questions. However my grandpa always said if you dont ask you dont own.

A favorite professor of mine in college always said "The only stupid question is the one you don't ask." I'll only suggest this: always try to provide "enough" information with your question, but find the balance between the dissertation and the barest of question. Often, as you'll perhaps find if you stick around, is that important information necessary to properly answer a question doesn't come out until several replies are posted, and sometimes getting on the wrong track due to extreme minimal details provided initially. You've done pretty good so far, keep it up.

And I see you did register as a member here, so Welcome!

Enjoy your vacation and rest up. You've got some reading to do when you get back.

[Matt Schafer]

I called the local book store about RRO and OMG there was several ones can someone please tell me which one to get. Tell me exactly what to ask for.

This page (http://www.robertsrules.com/book.html) has all of the details for which book to get, including pictures of both the paperback and hardcover editions. (The blue hardcover picture may be the color of the book underneath the dust cover.) It may be easiest to ensure you have the right book by asking for the specific ISBN numbers shown on that page (about 2/3 down the page). If those numbers match, then you know you have the correct book.

There are a lot of different books out there with "Robert's Rules" in the title. The books shown on that page are the current official ones.

---

As a side note, I recently found a copy of the 4th edition of Robert's Rules of Order Revised (published in 1913) at a used book store. (Don't get this one for current use!) What a find! And for only $3! The handwriting of its previous owner is simply beautiful. Should be an interesting read, once I get through the current edition of RONR.

[hmtcastle]

I recently found a copy of the 4th edition of Robert's Rules of Order Revised (published in 1913) at a used book store. (Don't get this one for current use!)

I suspect it would do just fine for 90% of what it would be needed for (and I believe the 4th edition was published in 1915).

[Matt Schafer]

I believe the 4th edition was published in 1915.

You are correct. The copyright in my little book is 1915. Who would have thought that one could refer to a 311-page book of rules as "little"?

[Gary c Tesser]

You are correct. The copyright in my little book is 1915. Who would have thought that one could refer to a 311-page book of rules as "little"?

Well, it's all context. I think of my RONR, 10th Ed., as 'short.' But I also think of Dan Honemann as "young." So my perceptions are perhaps distended.

Less frivolously, it has been a pleasure reading Matt Schafer's posts, with their unique insight and humor, on the Robert's Rules Website Forum (RONR MB) these past couple of weeks or so, and I look forward to more.