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Nominations for council president are not debatable


Guest Jim Brady

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My city is having its initial meeting of the common council next week to elect a new council president. The president of the council sent the following "When it comes to nominations for council president, please note that motions relating to nominations are not debatable (pursuant to Robert's Rules of Order as adopted, Sec. 2-36)." Can someone please clarify why the nomination is not debatable. Thanks

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My city is having its initial meeting of the common council next week to elect a new council president.

The president of the council sent the following "When it comes to nominations for council president, please note that motions relating to nominations are not debatable (pursuant to Robert's Rules of Order as adopted, Sec. 2-36)."

Can someone please clarify why the nomination is not debatable?

Impossible.

Why? Because nominations ARE debatable.

Your president is wrong.

Motions relating to nominating are not debatable -- under most circumstances. (Exceptions are possible.)

But any given nomination, or all the nominations, are debatable.

There is a difference.

Was your president referring to a motion? I don't think so. I think your president's memo was referring to the people being nominated being subject to scrutiny and subject to having their pros and cons spoken out loud.

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My city is having its initial meeting of the common council next week to elect a new council president. The president of the council sent the following "When it comes to nominations for council president, please note that motions relating to nominations are not debatable (pursuant to Robert's Rules of Order as adopted, Sec. 2-36)." Can someone please clarify why the nomination is not debatable. Thanks

Motions relating to nominations are not debatable. Page 276

The making of nominations is debatable. Page T45

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My city is having its initial meeting of the common council next week to elect a new council president. The president of the council sent the following "When it comes to nominations for council president, please note that motions relating to nominations are not debatable (pursuant to Robert's Rules of Order as adopted, Sec. 2-36)." Can someone please clarify why the nomination is not debatable. Thanks

The president is flatly mistaken.

Motions realated to nominations, such as opening and closing them, are not debatable. But the nominations themselves, i.e., the merit, or lack thereof, of the individual candidates is most certainly debatable.

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Impossible.

Why? Because nominations ARE debatable.

Your president is wrong.

Motions relating to nominating are not debatable -- under most circumstances. (Exceptions are possible.)

But any given nomination, or all the nominations, are debatable.

There is a difference.

Was your president referring to a motion? I don't think so. I think your president's memo was referring to the people being nominated being subject to scrutiny and subject to having their pros and cons spoken out loud.

Thanks for your response. Here is the presidents response to me " Nominations are NOT debatable on the Council floor. The incoming Council has traditionally met in room 119 prior to going into the Council chambers for its Annual Meeting. "

Any comments?

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Motions relating to nominations are not debatable. Page 276

The making of nominations is debatable. Page T45

Thanks for your response. Here is the presidents response to me " Nominations are NOT debatable on the Council floor. The incoming Council has traditionally met in room 119 prior to going into the Council chambers for its Annual Meeting. "

Any comments?

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The president is flatly mistaken.

Motions realated to nominations, such as opening and closing them, are not debatable. But the nominations themselves, i.e., the merit, or lack thereof, of the individual candidates is most certainly debatable.

Thanks for your response. Here is the presidents response to me " Nominations are NOT debatable on the Council floor. The incoming Council has traditionally met in room 119 prior to going into the Council chambers for its Annual Meeting. "

Any comments?

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Thanks for your response. Here is the presidents response to me " Nominations are NOT debatable on the Council floor. The incoming Council has traditionally met in room 119 prior to going into the Council chambers for its Annual Meeting. "

Any comments?

He's still wrong. Capitalizing his words doesn't make him right.

And tradition falls to the ground in the face of ink on the page. The citations from RONR trump custom.

His response, by the way, does not constitute a ruling, as it did not take place when he was in the chair. And if he did say that while in the chair, it would be subject to Appeal, whereupon the citations from RONR would be highly relevant.

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Thanks for your response. Here is the presidents response to me " Nominations are NOT debatable on the Council floor. The incoming Council has traditionally met in room 119 prior to going into the Council chambers for its Annual Meeting. "

Any comments?

My comment would be that I have no idea what meeting in some specific room has to do with whether nominations are debatable. As is noted above nominations are debatable so the President is wrong (and he can be directed to RONR tinted pages 18-19 #49 for the correct citation since there is no Section 2-36 in RONR).

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My comment would be that I have no idea what meeting in some specific room has to do with whether nominations are debatable. As is noted above nominations are debatable so the President is wrong (and he can be directed to RONR tinted pages 18-19 #49 for the correct citation since there is no Section 2-36 in RONR).

I sent the following to him after his response "So you say the nominations are not debatable, do we not follow Robert's Rules in the city of Olean? The nominations are clearly debatable in accordance with Robert's rules. Are you saying I am to meet you in Room 119 prior to the meeting? At what time am I supposed to meet you there? Did you revise the agenda that I received from Kelly? What is the purpose of meeting in Room 119? Is it open to the Public?

Thanks again for your prompt response." I am still waiting for his response.

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I sent the following to him after his response "So you say the nominations are not debatable, do we not follow Robert's Rules in the city of Olean? The nominations are clearly debatable in accordance with Robert's rules. Are you saying I am to meet you in Room 119 prior to the meeting? At what time am I supposed to meet you there? Did you revise the agenda that I received from Kelly? What is the purpose of meeting in Room 119? Is it open to the Public?

Thanks again for your prompt response." I am still waiting for his response.

You may raise a point of order at the meeting if he declines to permit debate and, if seconded, appeal his decision. Do you have a majority that wish debate?

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You may raise a point of order at the meeting if he declines to permit debate and, if seconded, appeal his decision. Do you have a majority that wish debate?

Not sure - first meeting - getting sworn in that night - Mayor's state of the city - Election of Council President - Would like to have an discussion about the election and what is in the best interests of the city.

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Not sure - first meeting - getting sworn in that night - Mayor's state of the city - Election of Council President - Would like to have an discussion about the election and what is in the best interests of the city.

Well, you will have some work to do before this meeting. First, check out ALL of the governing documents and laws applicable to the Council to make sure that there isn't language somewhere that does prohibit debating nominations (it could be that there is something elsewhere but the President not knowing exactly where the language is just said RONR said it hoping that would be enough). Then if there is no language elsewhere start calling other Council members and find out if enough of them want a full discussion on the nominees that an Appeal of the President's ruling would be upheld.

Of course, this is assuming that you will be a Council member at the time of the nominations and election. If you won't be a member yet you won't have any standing to raise a Point of Order or Appeal.

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I sent the following to him after his response "So you say the nominations are not debatable, do we not follow Robert's Rules in the city of Olean? The nominations are clearly debatable in accordance with Robert's rules.

You might also ask what he meant by "(pursuant to Robert's Rules of Order as adopted, Sec. 2-36)", and why he is no longer citing it, but rather tradition.

Better yet, ask to see it. There is no such section in RONR 10th ed. In the 1915 edition (ROR), there is an "Article II, Sec. 36", but it is the motion to Reconsider, which has nothing to do with nominations.

It doesn't sound like this guy is telling the truth.

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Not sure - first meeting - getting sworn in that night - Mayor's state of the city - Election of Council President - Would like to have an discussion about the election and what is in the best interests of the city.

If the majority wants debate, they will get it.

Note that you are no doubt governed by statute, which could prevent debate, and your city council might never have adopted RONR. That might change my answer.

I would also refer you to "Nominations: The Great (Lack of) Debate," National Parliamentarian, 1st Quarter, 2005, by George Mervosh, III, PRP. (Also reprinted.)

I should also point out that declining to permit debate would not invalidate the election. Under RONR a 2/3 vote can prevent that debate (pp. 189 ff, 252 ff., and 244). Also note that some error in the nomination process would not invalidate the election.

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Well, you will have some work to do before this meeting. First, check out ALL of the governing documents and laws applicable to the Council to make sure that there isn't language somewhere that does prohibit debating nominations (it could be that there is something elsewhere but the President not knowing exactly where the language is just said RONR said it hoping that would be enough). Then if there is no language elsewhere start calling other Council members and find out if enough of them want a full discussion on the nominees that an Appeal of the President's ruling would be upheld.

Of course, this is assuming that you will be a Council member at the time of the nominations and election. If you won't be a member yet you won't have any standing to raise a Point of Order or Appeal.

Hopefully will be a member at the time of the nomination and election - this is the agenda

ANNUAL MEETING

OF

OLEAN COMMON COUNCIL

MONDAY, JANUARY 3, 2011 AT 6:30 P.M.

COUNCIL CHAMBERS - OLEAN MUNICIPAL BUILDING

1. Roll-Call

2. Invocation

3. Pledge

4. Communications from the Mayor

a. State of the City Address

5. Unfinished Council Business

a. Oath of Office

b. Election of Council President

6. Adjournment

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If the majority wants debate, they will get it.

Note that you are no doubt governed by statute, which could prevent debate, and your city council might never have adopted RONR. That might change my answer.

I would also refer you to "Nominations: The Great (Lack of) Debate," National Parliamentarian, 1st Quarter, 2005, by George Mervosh, III, PRP. (Also reprinted.)

I should also point out that declining to permit debate would not invalidate the election. Under RONR a 2/3 vote can prevent that debate (pp. 189 ff, 252 ff., and 244). Also note that some error in the nomination process would not invalidate the election.

The following is from the code of ordinances "On all points of order not governed by these rules, the general rules of parliamentary practice as outlined in Robert's Rules of Order, Revised, shall be referred to for guidance. The city attorney shall be the parliamentarian for the city."

"

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The following is from the code of ordinances "On all points of order not governed by these rules, the general rules of parliamentary practice as outlined in Robert's Rules of Order, Revised, shall be referred to for guidance. The city attorney shall be the parliamentarian for the city."

"

That would refer to the current book. Note that, under RONR, the parliamentarian cannot rule; it is the chair's duty.

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Hopefully will be a member at the time of the nomination and election - this is the agenda

ANNUAL MEETING OFOLEAN COMMON COUNCIL

MONDAY, JANUARY 3, 2011 AT 6:30 P.M.

COUNCIL CHAMBERS - OLEAN MUNICIPAL BUILDING

1. Roll-Call

2. Invocation

3. Pledge

4. Communications from the Mayor

a. State of the City Address

5. Unfinished Council Business

a. Oath of Office

b. Election of Council President

6. Adjournment

Mr Brady, as Chris H prudently advised, get your ducks in order before the meeting. Be ready for a scrap, unless the council president can be brought to his senses beforehand.

I suggest that if the council president doesn't get back to pronto, spread your note around the council. And maybe the citizenry.

And don't even think you're stuck with that "agenda." See <url=http://www.robertsrules.com/faq.html?#14FAQ #14, "How can I get an item on the agenda for a meeting?" at ... um ...

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[snip]

And don't even think you're stuck with that "agenda." See <url=http://www.robertsrules.com/faq.html?#14FAQ #14, "How can I get an item on the agenda for a meeting?" at ... um ...

Well crap, that worked. Mr Brady, look here: http://www.robertsrules.com/faq.html#14

... while I get my head examined, or maybe pickled. Hmm, pickling sounds good. Mmm, maybe with a quarter-pound of corned beef. I can't decide which is better, Irish or kosher corned beef. I'm thinking of maybe soaking some of each, to leach out the salt -- see where the authentic flavor really is. You can't really tell when salt is involved. It's all about the seasonings, and who can tell about them once the palate has been compromised with salt, the universal taste leveller?

Oh, and cole slaw. I know sauerkraut is what you're all thinking of, like on hot dogs, but c'mon and try a hot dog with cole slaw -- Jon Singer recommended it to me, maybe 35 years ago, and it's still good -- and see if it doesn't go well with corned beef too.

(Four in the morning, and now I bet you slavemasters want page citations yet. For your $4.50 an hour? You got a case. If I weren't trying to give Brady a hand, I"d'a' stopped at "Well crap.")

[Edited for culinary charm.]

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Well crap, that worked. Mr Brady, look here: http://www.robertsrules.com/faq.html#14

... while I get my head examined, or maybe pickled. Hmm, pickling sounds good. Mmm, maybe with a quarter-pound of corned beef. I can't decide which is better, Irish or kosher corned beef. I'm thinking of maybe soaking some of each, to leach out the salt -- see where the authentic flavor really is.

(Four in the morning, and now I bet you slavemasters want page citations yet. For your $4.50 an hour? You got a case. If I weren't trying to give Brady a hand, I"d'a' stopped at "Well crap.")

[Edited for culinary charm.]

Fortunately, or unfortunately, Mr. Tesser is one of our saner members. (And he is going to hate having that said about him.)

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Well crap, that worked. Mr Brady, look here: http://www.robertsrules.com/faq.html#14

... while I get my head examined, or maybe pickled. Hmm, pickling sounds good. Mmm, maybe with a quarter-pound of corned beef. I can't decide which is better, Irish or kosher corned beef. I'm thinking of maybe soaking some of each, to leach out the salt -- see where the authentic flavor really is. You can't really tell when salt is involved. It's all about the seasonings, and who can tell about them once the palate has been compromised with salt, the universal taste leveller?

Oh, and cole slaw. I know sauerkraut is what you're all thinking of, like on hot dogs, but c'mon and try a hot dog with cole slaw -- Jon Singer recommended it to me, maybe 35 years ago, and it's still good -- and see if it doesn't go well with corned beef too.

(Four in the morning, and now I bet you slavemasters want page citations yet. For your $4.50 an hour? You got a case. If I weren't trying to give Brady a hand, I"d'a' stopped at "Well crap.")

[Edited for culinary charm.]

larry, how can the first organizational meeting of the year for our local idiots on the common council have "unfinishe business" on the agenda?

there are new members being sworn in that evening who were not part of any previous "business". How can they be expected to vote yes or no on that evening?

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larry, how can the first organizational meeting of the year for our local idiots on the common council have "unfinishe business" on the agenda?

there are new members being sworn in that evening who were not part of any previous "business". How can they be expected to vote yes or no on that evening? Sorry Gary I meant to send this to larry. Could you see that he reads this? Thank you for your work.

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larry, how can the first organizational meeting of the year for our local idiots on the common council have "unfinishe business" on the agenda?

there are new members being sworn in that evening who were not part of any previous "business". How can they be expected to vote yes or no on that evening?

According to RONR, all unfinished business falls to the ground at the close of a session which ends the terms of some or all of the members. Any motions would need to be made again as New Business (which as far as RONR is concerned, does not prevent a vote being taken the same meeting). Your rules may vary.

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According to RONR, all unfinished business falls to the ground at the close of a session which ends the terms of some or all of the members. Any motions would need to be made again as New Business (which as far as RONR is concerned, does not prevent a vote being taken the same meeting). Your rules may vary.

Josh,thank you so much. Greatly appreciated.

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