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  2. Wanting a second opinion (or two)... Recently, the Board of Directors of an Association I am advising made and adopted a motion contrary to the Association's bylaws. The decision was announced to the general membership and it was quickly pointed out that the motion was improper and its adoption null and void. The Chair agreed and the Board is moving to correct its error. I am of two minds in advising the Board on how to proceed at their next meeting. Should they: A. The Chair states the fact that the motion and its subsequent adoption were improper and are therefore null and void; to be recorded as such in the minutes of the next meeting; or B. Work with an officer, most likely the Vice-Chair, to make a motion to rescind the previously adopted motion and thereby require a majority vote to pass. (The Board has already been notified that their adoption of the motion was improper so I would consider that previous notification.) I feel either A or B suffice and a record of the action will be recorded in the minutes but I've never come across this before and would like some sagely counsel. Thank you for your consideration, Dave
  3. Today
  4. i'm not a fan of the subsection "Giving Notice of Amendments " (p. 596) being treated as simply helpful advice.
  5. I was afraid that this would be the response. These are questions that your organization will need to answer for itself. It would therefore seem prudent for the superior organization to, at a minimum, adopt rules clarifying this matter. If the members are simply subordinates of the chair, and “voting” is done merely to poll members for their opinions and to make them feel like they have a say, then these groups are not a deliberative assembly or anything resembling a deliberative assembly. As a consequence, it would not be prudent for the organization to adopt Robert’s Rules of Order, or other rules of parliamentary procedure for the conduct of business in the committee, since such rules are incompatible with the manner in which the committees are operated. To the extent that the chair chooses to solicit opinions from his committee members, he could use whatever rules are suitable to his purposes. On the other hand, if these are real committees in the parliamentary sense, in which each member of the committee has equal say in the decisions of the committee (as expressed by the member’s vote), then it would be beneficial for the superior organization to adopt rules of order for the conduct of the committee’s business. Generally, this is done by the adoption of a recognized parliamentary manual, such as Robert’s Rules of Order. It should be noted that this is the manner in which committees operate under Robert’s Rules of Order, for whatever that is worth in this society. Finally, it should be noted that, if the chairman is authorized to appoint and remove members of the committee (which we are told is often, but not always, the case), then the chairman will certainly exert a great deal of influence over the committee’s business, even if the committee is operated under the procedures in RONR, since the chairman ultimately would have the ability to remove members who disagree with him.
  6. Maybe. Or, maybe not. Can you provide a little background?
  7. if you are not recognized by the chair is your motion valid
  8. Thanks for the very detailed comments on the governing documents explicitly allowing the developer to vote unsold lots. There seems to be this authority in the so-called CC&R's of the HOA which were voted on by the members and adopted after the mediation.
  9. I don't know that anybody is actually suggesting that you introduce any particular rules of order. But, I think it has (properly) been suggested that when one of these committees actually has a meeting and acts as a deliberative body to reach a decision, the committee may certainly voluntarily follow the rules in RONR. If you are going to introduce anything parliamentary, my suggestion at this point would be to just introduce a motion that RONR be the parliamentary authority, using language substantially similar to that on pages 580 and 588 of RONR. Such a motion should be in the nature of a bylaw amendment or a special rule of order.
  10. Probably participating in it!! Let's see what Guest Nunavut Jack has to say.
  11. Only if the president is permitted to get away with it. File this under "ripped from the headlines".
  12. No, it certainly was not proper. Where was the chair when this nonsense was going on?
  13. And my question is, 'What, if any, Rules of Order should/can I introduce?' e.g. would it be appropriate in this situation to (somehow) establish RONR as the parliamentary authority? Perhaps that's not specific enough, but I'm not sure where else I could take this.
  14. Just a friendly reminder from this Forum's Introductory page: "The Question and Answer Forum is provided to allow an open exchange of views relevant to specific questions of parliamentary procedure under Robert's Rules of Order Newly Revised."
  15. Guest

    Motions & Voting

    Good morning. Meeting (Face to face) did not have quorum (4 people) only 3 were present. Co-worker put in a motion and election took place. Is the motion valid? Later they got a 4th member to initial (not sign) the motion in the top corner. Is this valid too?
  16. That's a good question! I'm not sure what the answer is. The Chair and the rest of the Committee serve at the pleasure of the Chartered Organization Representative. The Chair can appoint, but not remove, committee members (and the COR can take that privilege away from the Chair, or give it to someone else, but in practice, the COR appoints the Chair and the Chair appoints the committee). So what "rights" do members have? Can they override the wishes of the chair? Is this really an autocracy, with voting just to poll members for opinions, or make them feel that they have a say in what goes on? The sum total of official rules on this subject that I can find is "Each chartered unit of the Boy Scouts of America must be supervised by a unit committee, consisting of three or more qualified adults, 21 years of age or older, selected by the organization with which the unit is connected…The unit must be operated under the guidance of the unit committee, one of whose members must be designated as chairman, in accordance with the Rules and Regulations, policies, and guidelines of the Boy Scouts of America " (https://filestore.scouting.org/filestore/membership/pdf/Rules_and_Regulations_June_2018.pdf, p. 10) The only official guidelines I've seen are "All issues should be discussed and resolved in open dialogue" and "The Scoutmaster is not a member of the troop committee and has no vote." (http://www.magnificentsevens.org/docs/Resources/TroopCommitteeGuidebook/TroopCommitteeGuidebook.pdf, p. 35) I think nearly anyone in another forum would say that I was making a mountain out of a molehill, and not to worry about it until problems arise. But I'd prefer to know what to do *before* problems arise, so that if a member insists on exercising his rights as a committee member (whether he words it this way or not), I'll know how to respond.
  17. I am confused now. You said you received a response which said “Each committee member has a job, assigned by the committee chair (who is selected by the Chartered Organization). The committee chair is vested with the authority by the CO to run the unit according to the policies of the BSA and the CO. The Committee Chair delegates responsibilities to the committee members according to the positions they hold. The body of the meeting consists of the committee, under the direction of the chair, reporting on what they have accomplished on their responsibilities the previous month.” This description suggests that the chairman is in charge and tells the other members of the committee what to do. You said that you “think this is mostly right.” Now you are saying that actually, the committee does make the decisions, it just generally does so by unanimous consent, but the committee could vote if there was disagreement. That is line with a committee in the parliamentary sense, and such a committee should indeed use Robert’s Rules of Order (or some other rules of order) to conduct its business. Committees often operate informally, and RONR discusses a number of modifications for committees and small boards, discussed in RONR, 11th ed., pg. 487-488. I have made my best attempt at trying to reconcile these conflicting descriptions. You tell me which one is right. -The “committee” is run by the chairman as he sees fit. Some committee chairmen choose to seek the input of their committee members on occasion. Ultimately, however, the chairman is in charge. -The committee is run by its members. The committee generally operates by unanimous consent, and the committee members grant a great deal of deference to the chairman’s opinions. Ultimately, however, the committee members (or at least enough of them to constitute a majority vote) is in charge.
  18. In that case, I fail to see why the guidance suggests that it doesn't need rules of order. Making decisions by consensus is just asking for trouble - it allows any person to hold up the works indefinitely, and leads to people adopting, not the most prudent or persuasive position, but the one whose advocates have the most endurance.
  19. My initial reading suggested that the only actual group was the three committee members of which Mr. Calion was the chairman. I suppose that he and his committee are free to conduct their business within the guidelines established by the BSA and overseen by the Organization Representative. The scouts themselves, however, appear to have a wide latitude in determining what activities they will pursue in consultation with their leader. I would strongly urge Mr. Calion to level with these scouts and inform them that if they decide to forgo proper parliamentary procedure or engage in consensus in order to reach the decisions of the group that some day in the future, perhaps not too far, that certain features inherit in these strategies will backfire and the problems they create will surely result in grief. It is not a requirement that the scouts become experts in this subject, but what is important is to believe that the majority prevails and that every one has a chance to contribute to a positive outcome. With respect, I must disagree with your statement that " '"How can we increase membership?' which doesn't need a vote,..." for the reason that if no vote is ever taken then no one takes any responsibility for what was supposedly decided. The act of voting attaches to the person voting in favor a moral responsibility to see that the proper result is attained, while at the same time those opposed are assured that they are not shut completely out of the process and may pursue alternatives within the rules.
  20. That's not quite how it works. There are decisions that get made—shall we buy a Troop trailer? If so, what features should it have, and how much shall we spend? The Scouts want to go to Philmont next year—should the Committee foot part of the bill, or should we encourage the Scouts to do more fundraising? Shall we charge dues to the Scouts on top of their annual fees? What fundraisers do we want to do this year? As you see, most decisions are about money, but not all—the Committee has to approve the annual program plan created by the Scouts, for instance. It's true that most business is in the nature of "The Scouts have decided to go to Camp Lewellen this year; the Activities Coordinator needs to reserve a campsite," or "How can we increase membership?" which doesn't need a vote, and most of the rest can be done by unanimous consent. But the possibility of contention is not non-existent.
  21. The motion doing so would have to be recorded in the current minutes.
  22. Not if they're following RONR.
  23. Guest

    President's Authority

    Can a president of the board change a decision after the board already voted and approved to do something without having a meeting with the board to discuss canceling it?
  24. A fair point, and probably not, in the general case. But it's a good justification if you have things you want taken out anyway.
  25. I have the disadvantage of having no experience with this organization, but I don't see how this sums up what came before it. What came before it suggests to me that this is not a deliberative assembly, and does not make any decisions - it's just a group of people, all with autonomy to make decisions within a certain sphere, telling each other what they've decided. I don't see how the Chair rules everything by directive. It seems to me that, if my understanding is correct, there's only one major thing that will need to be decided - who is responsible for a particular item? Sometimes that will be obvious, sometimes it won't, but that needs to be decided somehow.
  26. Hmm. Okay, but it still seems to me that voting, on occasion, is a good idea, to avoid Committee members feeling that their input is irrelevant. Certainly voting happens on a regular basis in those Committee meetings I've attended where I was not the Chair (rather too many, in fact; often the chair has no awareness of the concept of unanimous consent). If there's voting (and the Guide at least implies the possibility of voting), there exists the possibility of needing more involved rules than just counting the votes after an informal discussion. But I suppose that I can just use RONR as an authority under general societal custom (as noted on P. 17) should the need arise, and do what I want otherwise.
  27. RONR 11th edition, page 310. (My emphasis.) It should be observed that if the offending words are not expunged then the possibility will always exist that if the minutes in question are ever published that they will include the offending words. As a cautionary measure perhaps the marginal notation "Rescinded and Ordered Expunged" should be followed by "Stricken Words Are Never To Be Published" or something similar. Having done this, in my opinion, the organization has done everything it can to disavow the offending words short of setting fire to the minutes.
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