Guest Rose T. Posted December 1, 2011 at 05:33 PM Report Share Posted December 1, 2011 at 05:33 PM I serve as parliamentarian for a small board. RONR p. 451. appears to preclude "a member of the assembly who acts as its parliamentarian" from casting a vote except in the case of a ballot vote. My question is this: If I am asked to rule on a particular motion from a parliamentary position, must I abstain from voting on the motion? Do I have to abstain from voting on ALL motions before the Board? What are the rules for having a Board member serve as parliamentarian? Does it matter that we operate under small board rules? Thanks for any help! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Harrison Posted December 1, 2011 at 05:47 PM Report Share Posted December 1, 2011 at 05:47 PM First of all you seem to be operating from the 10th Edition which hasn't been the current one for the last 2 months and the correct page for the 11th is p. 467. That being said you as a parliamentarian don't "rule" on anything but merely advise the President or the assembly when requested on the correct procedure. The rule that you should maintain the same level of impartiality as the presiding officer doesn't seem to interfere with you ability to vote on a question when the vote is by ballot. There would be no direct personal or pecuniary interest not common to other members of the body involved because if there were I would think that any member who Appealed the decision of the Chair would be encouraged to abstain as would the Chair but RONR in no way suggests that this should be the case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Novosielski Posted December 1, 2011 at 11:02 PM Report Share Posted December 1, 2011 at 11:02 PM I serve as parliamentarian for a small board. RONR p. 451. appears to preclude "a member of the assembly who acts as its parliamentarian" from casting a vote except in the case of a ballot vote. My question is this: If I am asked to rule on a particular motion from a parliamentary position, must I abstain from voting on the motion? Do I have to abstain from voting on ALL motions before the Board? What are the rules for having a Board member serve as parliamentarian? Does it matter that we operate under small board rules? Thanks for any help!I'm presuming this is a private society, and not a publicly elected Board, yes? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh Martin Posted December 2, 2011 at 03:26 AM Report Share Posted December 2, 2011 at 03:26 AM My question is this: If I am asked to rule on a particular motion from a parliamentary position, must I abstain from voting on the motion?Parliamentarians don't make rulings, they simply advise the presiding officer. In any event, the rule you have cited applies regardless of whether you happened to advise the chair on a particular motion - you should not vote unless the vote is by ballot.Do I have to abstain from voting on ALL motions before the Board?On all motions before the board, you should not vote unless the vote is taken by ballot. Strictly speaking, you cannot be prevented from voting, but if you fail to maintain your duty of impartiality you should resign from your position of parliamentarian (or you should be removed from your position).What are the rules for having a Board member serve as parliamentarian?The rules for a board member serving as parliamentarian are the same as for the member of any other assembly serving as parliamentarian. See RONR, 11th ed., pg. 467, lines 8-19.Does it matter that we operate under small board rules?No.I'm presuming this is a private society, and not a publicly elected Board, yes?I don't see how this would make a difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trina Posted December 2, 2011 at 08:20 PM Report Share Posted December 2, 2011 at 08:20 PM I'm a bit perplexed by the language which poster Rose T. has pointed at:"A member of an assembly who acts as its parliamentarian has the same duty as the presiding officer to maintain a position of impartiality, and therefore does not make motions etc. etc." (p. 467)That phrase "a member who acts as parliamentarian" seems very broad in application. Is this intended to apply in a society which has no mention of a parliamentarian in its bylaws, but which (by custom or via standing rules) does assign parliamentarian duties to one of its members? The member/parliamentarian is only very rarely asked for advice on matters of parliamentary procedure (the assembly is small and fairly informal). Is the instruction on p. 467 intended to apply to someone in that position?I'm not saying this is the situation in Rose T.'s organization; if this issue is not sufficiently related to the original question, I'll be glad to start a new thread... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg Goodwiller, PRP Posted December 2, 2011 at 09:39 PM Report Share Posted December 2, 2011 at 09:39 PM Some of my colleagues may not appreciate this response, but I'm going to offer it anyway . . .Small boards often cannot afford the luxury of giving up a voting member in order for that member to serve as the board's parliamentarian. In that case, the organization can adopt a special rule of order stating that the parliamentarian may engage in debate, make motions, and vote on all matters no matter by what method the vote is taken. Special rules of order "trump" RONR. There is clearly good reasoning behind RONR's rules about the role of parliamentarians. But if it is the will of the body that its parliamentarian participate fully in meetings, the body has the right to make that determination. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Edgar Posted December 2, 2011 at 09:49 PM Report Share Posted December 2, 2011 at 09:49 PM Small boards often cannot afford the luxury of giving up a voting member in order for that member to serve as the board's parliamentarian.I certainly have no problem with that although one could argue that small boards rarely have need of a parliamentarian and that the chair should be well-versed in all the parliamentary situations that are likely to occur. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg Goodwiller, PRP Posted December 2, 2011 at 10:00 PM Report Share Posted December 2, 2011 at 10:00 PM . . . the chair should be well-versed in all the parliamentary situations that are likely to occur.Well, I certainly deal with a good many who aren't . . . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trina Posted December 2, 2011 at 11:36 PM Report Share Posted December 2, 2011 at 11:36 PM Well, I certainly deal with a good many who aren't . . .Amen to that.The fact that an assembly is usually sufficiently harmonious and/or sufficiently informal to do without the services of a parliamentarian doesn't mean that the assembly never needs a parliamentarian. If one of the officers of the board, for example, has this additional (and intermittent) function of acting as parliamentarian, it doesn't make sense to me that such a very part-time parliamentarian would be required to follow the rules set out on p. 467 (never making motions, engaging in debate, or voting (except when by ballot)). I hope a few more people will weigh in on whether those rules are intended to apply to a member who acts as parliamentarian on such an occasional basis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David A Foulkes Posted December 3, 2011 at 01:58 PM Report Share Posted December 3, 2011 at 01:58 PM I hope a few more people will weigh in on whether those rules are intended to apply to a member who acts as parliamentarian on such an occasional basis.As an alternative, perhaps such a member who is presumably well-versed in RONR, the bylaws, and general parliamentary procedure could, through the use of proper procedures (Points of Order, Parliamentary Inquiries, and even through debate) accomplish (most of?) the results expected of a parliamentarian while thus still retaining status as a member of the assembly with full rights. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Wynn Posted December 3, 2011 at 02:43 PM Report Share Posted December 3, 2011 at 02:43 PM I'm presuming this is a private society, and not a publicly elected Board, yes?I don't see how this would make a difference.I'll assume Gary is detouring from the scope of this forum and referring to state Sunshine Laws, which have been known to prevent a publicly elected member from abstaining. Steer it back over to RONR, Gary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Honemann Posted December 3, 2011 at 03:32 PM Report Share Posted December 3, 2011 at 03:32 PM Amen to that.The fact that an assembly is usually sufficiently harmonious and/or sufficiently informal to do without the services of a parliamentarian doesn't mean that the assembly never needs a parliamentarian. If one of the officers of the board, for example, has this additional (and intermittent) function of acting as parliamentarian, it doesn't make sense to me that such a very part-time parliamentarian would be required to follow the rules set out on p. 467 (never making motions, engaging in debate, or voting (except when by ballot)). I hope a few more people will weigh in on whether those rules are intended to apply to a member who acts as parliamentarian on such an occasional basis.One would hope that if an assembly has such an "on-again-off-again" parliamentarian, it would at least know when he was "on" and when he was "off". Whenever a member is serving as an assembly’s parliamentarian, then while he is doing so he should do so properly. However, if the chair simply asks for advice from an experienced member from time to time (see RONR, 11th ed., p. 254, ll. 4-7), that member is not acting as the assembly’s parliamentarian. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh Martin Posted December 3, 2011 at 05:28 PM Report Share Posted December 3, 2011 at 05:28 PM Some of my colleagues may not appreciate this response, but I'm going to offer it anyway . . .Small boards often cannot afford the luxury of giving up a voting member in order for that member to serve as the board's parliamentarian. In that case, the organization can adopt a special rule of order stating that the parliamentarian may engage in debate, make motions, and vote on all matters no matter by what method the vote is taken. Special rules of order "trump" RONR. There is clearly good reasoning behind RONR's rules about the role of parliamentarians. But if it is the will of the body that its parliamentarian participate fully in meetings, the body has the right to make that determination.The board certainly may adopt such a special rule of order, although an alternative which is likely to be suitable for many assemblies (since they are unlikely to need a full-time parliamentarian), would be for the chair to simply ask advice from an experienced member as needed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David A Foulkes Posted December 3, 2011 at 05:37 PM Report Share Posted December 3, 2011 at 05:37 PM However, if the chair simply asks for advice from an experienced member from time to time (see RONR, 11th ed., p. 254, ll. 4-7), that member is not acting as the assembly’s parliamentarian.Since this citation is found within the section on Point of Order, allowing the chair to seek advice before offering his ruling, does this apply more generally to the entire meeting? That is, for example, if a motion is made that the chair thinks might be out of order (although no point of order is raised), could the chair ask another general member for advice? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh Martin Posted December 3, 2011 at 05:41 PM Report Share Posted December 3, 2011 at 05:41 PM Since this citation is found within the section on Point of Order, allowing the chair to seek advice before offering his ruling, does this apply more generally to the entire meeting? That is, for example, if a motion is made that the chair thinks might be out of order (although no point of order is raised), could the chair ask another general member for advice?I don't believe that the rule cited prohibits the chair from asking advice from a member at other times. The example you have provided clearly seems to be proper. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rose T. Posted December 6, 2011 at 02:43 AM Report Share Posted December 6, 2011 at 02:43 AM Thank you all for your advice. I have decided to resign from my unofficial role as parliamentarian and to serve as an "experienced" (I used that term loosely) member under RONR, 11th ed., p. 254, ll. 4-7. It is important to me to continue to serve as an active member of this Board. Thanks again! Rose Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Edgar Posted December 6, 2011 at 03:00 AM Report Share Posted December 6, 2011 at 03:00 AM I have decided to resign from my unofficial roleThat's quite a trick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh Martin Posted December 7, 2011 at 12:35 AM Report Share Posted December 7, 2011 at 12:35 AM I have decided to resign from my unofficial role as parliamentarian and to serve as an "experienced" (I used that term loosely) member under RONR, 11th ed., p. 254, ll. 4-7. It is important to me to continue to serve as an active member of this Board.Well, I think that when you said in your original post, "I serve as parliamentarian for a small board," it was our understanding that you were serving in an official capacity, and our answers were based on that understanding. I really doubt there is much difference between an "unofficial parliamentarian" and the "experienced member" described on pg. 254, lines 4-7 (or if there is, I'm not entirely clear on what it would be). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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