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main motion, fix the time to recess


Kim Goldsworthy

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At the top of the meeting, if a main motion to fix the time to recess (e.g., "I move that we recess at eight o'clock") is adopted, then, when the hour arrives, does that general order (or special order?) interrupt business?

Leaving aside the fact that the form of the motion which you use as an example appears to be incomplete, I think that the short answer to your question is "yes" (RONR, p. 374, ll. 4-29).

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What is the classification of this order of the day?

That is, is it a general order for eight o'clock, or a special order for eight o'clock?

I think it's actually a recess for eight o'clock, unless it's a Fred for eight o'clock (or maybe a Wilma).

http://robertsrules....dpost__p__84096

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What is the classification of this order of the day?

That is, is it a general order for eight o'clock, or a special order for eight o'clock?

I agree with Shmuel that it's a recess scheduled for a particular hour. :)

Parliamentary law, it seems, has a soft spot in its otherwise hard, cold heart for recesses and adjournments. They exist in a world of their own, possess extraordinary power, and aren’t to be messed with. For another illustration of this in RONR (in addition to the paragraphs on page 374 previously referred to), look at page 370, lines 26-31.

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I think it's actually a recess for eight o'clock, unless it's a Fred for eight o'clock (or maybe a Wilma).

http://robertsrules....dpost__p__84096

Why do you NOT consider a pre-determined adjournment, or a pre-determined recess, neither a general order nor a special order?

Isn't it one or the other, by definition?

RONR does not say in Section 41 that recesses/adjournment are exceptions to the special order/general order rule. -- Their creation is identical. So surely they must be one or the other.

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For another illustration of this in RONR (in addition to the paragraphs on page 374 previously referred to), look at page 370, lines 26-31.

The reference (p. 370 ll. 26-31) is what I have been looking for!

Thank you for this hidden treasure.

And I would recommend that RONR 12 incorporate this exception into Section 41.

(Namely, that pre-determined recesses which are created by the "general order" procedure in Section 41 are to be treated as special "special orders", and can interrupt special orders.)

This is worth writing an article about. (To pre-empt J.J. from doing the same.) :)

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Why do you NOT consider a pre-determined adjournment, or a pre-determined recess, neither a general order nor a special order?

Oh, but I do. :)

And I would recommend that RONR 12 incorporate this exception into Section 41.

You ought to get hold of the Deluxe 11th Edition, where page 370 has, very conveniently, already been incorporated into Section 41.

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You ought to get hold of the Deluxe 11th Edition, where page 370 has, very conveniently, already been incorporated into Section 41.

So, do you think that the scenario describes a general order?

Do you think that the paragraph which describes an EXCEPTION should be moved from under "example" (page 370) and inserted into page 367 ("Rules of Precedence Affecting General Orders for Particular Hours")?

That paragraph is NOT an extention of the "example" paragraph.

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So, do you think that the scenario describes a general order?

Do you think that the paragraph which describes an EXCEPTION should be moved from under "example" (page 370) and inserted into page 367 ("Rules of Precedence Affecting General Orders for Particular Hours")?

That paragraph is NOT an extention of the "example" paragraph.

No, I don't think a recess scheduled for a certain hour is a general order. I think it is neither a general order nor a special order, although it more closely resembles a special order.

You are correct that the paragraph on page 370, lines 26-35, which deals with rules governing the relation between special orders and recesses or adjournments set for a particular hour, is not part of the "Example" portion of the text. Unfortunately, the current typography of the book has no way of indicating how many paragraphs the lower-level subheadings apply to.

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I don't think a recess scheduled for a certain hour is a general order. I think it is neither a general order nor a special order, although it more closely resembles a special order.

Do you have a citation for dividing orders of the day into more than two classes?

See page 352 lines 7 to 10.

It defines "order of the day."

***

An order of the day, as stated above, is a particular subject, question, or item of business that is set in advance to be taken up during a given session, day, or meeting, or at a given hour, provided that no business having precedence over it interferes.

***

See page 364, lines 32-33.

It divides "orders of the day" into only two classes.

***

Orders of the day are divided into the classes of general orders and special orders.

***

See page 364.

It defines the difference between general orders and special orders.

***

A general order (as explained under Orders of the Day, below) is any question which, usually by postponement, has been made an order of the day without being made a special order.

***

See page 365, lines 14-16.

It repeats the exclusive two-class division of orders of the day.

***

Any matter that is made an order of the day without being made a special order is a general order for the time named.

***

See page 352 lines 10-13.

It repeats the two classes.

***

The methods by which orders of the day can be made, their division into the classes of general orders and special orders, and their treatment in cases where they come into conflict are explained on pages 353ff.

***

Based on the above, I see no exception to the rule.

I see no way for the creation of an order of the day (viz., setting a time for a recess) somehow jumps outside the two-class division.

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Do you have a citation for dividing orders of the day into more than two classes?

See page 352 lines 7 to 10.

It defines "order of the day."

***

An order of the day, as stated above, is a particular subject, question, or item of business that is set in advance to be taken up during a given session, day, or meeting, or at a given hour, provided that no business having precedence over it interferes.

***

See page 364, lines 32-33.

It divides "orders of the day" into only two classes.

***

Orders of the day are divided into the classes of general orders and special orders.

***

See page 364.

It defines the difference between general orders and special orders.

***

A general order (as explained under Orders of the Day, below) is any question which, usually by postponement, has been made an order of the day without being made a special order.

***

See page 365, lines 14-16.

It repeats the exclusive two-class division of orders of the day.

***

Any matter that is made an order of the day without being made a special order is a general order for the time named.

***

See page 352 lines 10-13.

It repeats the two classes.

***

The methods by which orders of the day can be made, their division into the classes of general orders and special orders, and their treatment in cases where they come into conflict are explained on pages 353ff.

***

Based on the above, I see no exception to the rule.

I see no way for the creation of an order of the day (viz., setting a time for a recess) somehow jumps outside the two-class division.

In view of the fact that the question asked in post #1 has been answered, is there another question of substance which you seek to have answered or are you now concerned about nothing other than nomenclature?

I ask because it seems to me that there is little to be gained by insisting that a recess scheduled for a particular hour be classified as either a “general order” or a “special order”, since doing so will likely be of no assistance at all in answering some other question of substance concerning it. In fact, it may do nothing other than cause confusion.

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Do you want me start a NEW thread on the question instead of adding posts to this thread?

(Viz., "Is it true that fixing the time for a recess/adjournment is a classless order, neither general nor special?")

I was hoping that the question was a natural follow up to the original post. -- If not, I will post the above question in a new thread.

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Do you want me start a NEW thread on the question instead of adding posts to this thread?

(Viz., "Is it true that fixing the time for a recess/adjournment is a classless order, neither general nor special?")

I was hoping that the question was a natural follow up to the original post. -- If not, I will post the above question in a new thread.

There apparently being no more questions of substance which you seek to have answered, there's no need to start a new thread.

As far as I am concerned, you can call a recess or an adjournment scheduled for a particular hour anything you like as long as you keep in mind that, as previously noted, “Fred” and “Wilma” are already taken. :)

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An order of the day, as stated above, is a particular subject, question, or item of business that is set in advance to be taken up during a given session, day, or meeting, or at a given hour, provided that no business having precedence over it interferes.

I would think that a recess does not fall into any of these categories, so that while it can be scheduled like an order of the day, it is not actually one.

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I would think that a recess does not fall into any of these categories, so that while it can be scheduled like an order of the day, it is not actually one.

Okay, but so what?

I certainly hope this doesn’t mean that if a member calls for the orders of the day at 3:01 PM when a recess has been scheduled for 3:00 PM, the chair’s response should be that there isn’t any. :)

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Jumping on the tail end of this discussion, I'd say that a recess can't be an order of the day because it involves no item of business being taken up. Indeed, it is a time when items of business are not taken up, and any that are already up are laid down. And yes, I think that a call for the orders of the day should cause the chair to properly note that, owing to the scheduled recess, there are none at this time and, accordingly, declare the meeting in recess.

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Jumping on the tail end of this discussion, I'd say that a recess can't be an order of the day because it involves no item of business being taken up. Indeed, it is a time when items of business are not taken up, and any that are already up are laid down. And yes, I think that a call for the orders of the day should cause the chair to properly note that, owing to the scheduled recess, there are none at this time and, accordingly, declare the meeting in recess.

Nah.

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