Immediate Past President

[Steeves]

Hi all!

I've been reading this forum and have fallen in love!

I'm involved in a non-profit and there are many issues I will bring forward rapidly but I will start with this one:

Our bylaws state Elected Officers of the Executive board are President, VP, Sec and Treas.

Further in our bylaws is stated the Exec Board is made up of the elected positions and the Immediate Past President.

The Immediate Past Prez has no job description. The IPP can vote in Exec brd meetings. There is no procedure to replace an IPP.

In the past few months we have had two Presidents resign.

They also resigned as IPP.

Does our board still have an IPP?

[jstackpo]

An IPP can't "resign" - he/she is in the position because of historical fact: once a past president, always a past president. And the "I" is just the most recent one. And the only way to "replace" an IPP is for the current president to leave office (by any means).

The most recent presidential resignee is now your IPP.

In my personal view, setting up an "official" Immediate Past President (IPP) position is not a particularly good idea. The most telling argument is the real possibility of a close and bitter race for the presidency, with the current president running (for a second term) against an "outsider". And the outsider - the "reform candidate", perhaps - wins but is still stuck with the thorn of the IPP on the Board in a position to snipe at the new president. And perhaps attempt to undermine the new president's plans.

If the erstwhile president is a "good guy" the new president can (usually, depending on the bylaws) appoint him to a pre-existing committee - or even have him chair one, which might put him on the Board - as the new president sees fit. That way the IPP's experience and value can be put to good use, when needed, without the danger of setting up an adversarial situation which would require a bylaw amendment to get out of.

Here's some more reasons

1) The President resigns and wants nothing to do with the organization.

2) The President simply doesn't run for election again because he's had enough, and never shows up at a board meeting.

3) The President is booted out of office for being incompetent, or for something more nefarious.

4) The President dies.

5) The President resigns and moves (wants to help but isn't around).

6) Even worse is the bylaw assignment of the IPP to chair a committee - such as nominating. Then he dies/quits/leaves town, &c. You are then stuck with an unfillable (by definition) vacancy.

[Guest Edgar]

Does our board still have an IPP?

Short of death, there will very likely always be someone who was your president immediately before your current president (or before a current vacancy in that office). It's a simple historical fact.

[Steeves]

Short of death, there will very likely always be someone who was your president immediately before your current president (or before a current vacancy in that office). It's a simple historical fact.

For clarity please.

Do you mean the person who was President three presidents ago can hold the IPP position?

[Steeves]

An IPP can't "resign" - he/she is in the position because of historical fact: once a past president, always a past president. And the "I" is just the most recent one. And the only way to "replace" an IPP is for the current president to leave office (by any means).

The most recent presidential resignee is now your IPP.

But they resigned!

[Chris Harrison]

Do you mean the person who was President three presidents ago can hold the IPP position?

Yes...when it was two Presidents ago.

[Steeves]

Yes...when it was two Presidents ago.

Har!

The person who the is IPP now will be leaving in a month

(Wanted to clarify moving away in a month.).

What type of authority does the IPP have besides being on the Exec Board and being able to vote?

[Steeves]

Did I mention we have no President at the moment?

[Chris Harrison]

But they resigned!

An IPP cannot resign. It is a historical impossibility. If someone was President and has left office (for whatever reason) they would become the Immediate Past President automatically and hold that position until another President has left office (at which time that person would become the IPP). The concept of an IPP resigning is as nonsensical as an Alumni of Harvard deciding that he no longer graduated from Harvard. The IPP was once the President and the Harvard Alumni did graduate from Harvard. Both are historical facts that cannot be undone without the use of a time machine.

[Chris Harrison]

What type of authority does the IPP have besides being on the Exec Board and being able to vote?

As far as RONR is concerned someone being an IPP is merely a state of being. Any duties/responsibilities/authority you all want the IPP to have would need to be codified in the bylaws.

Did I mention we have no President at the moment?

Unless your bylaws say otherwise the Vice President automatically becomes the President upon the vacancy being created. Where is the VP?

[Steeves]

As far as RONR is concerned someone being an IPP is merely a state of being. Any duties/responsibilities/authority you all want the IPP to have would need to be codified in the bylaws.

Unless your bylaws say otherwise the Vice President automatically becomes the President upon the vacancy being created. Where is the VP?

The VP is currently acting as President.

Our bylaws do not have a 'job description' for the IPP.

Our bylaws only state the IPP is part of the Executive Board and has voting rights.

Can the VP/acting President hand over the gavel to the IPP to chair an Executive Brd meeting?

[Chris Harrison]

The VP is currently acting as President.

Unless your bylaws say otherwise the VP automatically becomes President (no acting required 'cause he's already got the job) and you all should fill the vacancy in the (now vacant) office of VP.

.

Our bylaws do not have a 'job description' for the IPP. Our bylaws only state the IPP is part of the Executive Board and has voting rights

Then it sounds like his job is to sit on the Board.

Can the VP/acting President hand over the gavel to the IPP to chair an Executive Brd meeting?

The VP (who is a different person than the President) is the first in line to preside if the President wishes to temporarily relinquish the chair. If the VP isn't there or declines the chair (he wishes to speak in debate on the question or such) the President can appoint someone to serve as Chair pro tem (provided no one on the Board objects to his appointment). If his appointment is objected to the President's nominee would be considered with the names of anyone else that Board members wish to serve as Chair pro tem. The Board would then elect whoever they want.

[Steeves]

Thank you Mr Harrison.

The VP is calling herself 'acting President' because she does not want to be President.

We are actively recruiting for a President. We have a bylaw that covers this.

What I am gathering from your post is this:

The VP did not have the authority to turn the gavel over without Exec Board approval. (It was only one meeting, serving only one purpose)

Could you cite this for me, or at least point me in the direction I need to look?

Thank you in advance.

[g40]

The VP is calling herself 'acting President' because she does not want to be President.

We are actively recruiting for a President. We have a bylaw that covers this.

Unless your bylaws specifically have provisions for filling the office of president, RONR says your former Vice-President IS the president - whether she wants the job or not.

[Chris Harrison]

The VP is calling herself 'acting President' because she does not want to be President.

We are actively recruiting for a President. We have a bylaw that covers this.

What I am gathering from your post is this:

The VP did not have the authority to turn the gavel over without Exec Board approval. (It was only one meeting, serving only one purpose)

Could you cite this for me, or at least point me in the direction I need to look?

Regarding the President turning over the chair see RONR pp. 394-395 and 452-453, Regarding the VP becoming the President see RONR p. 575 ll. 6-17

[Steeves]

Unless your bylaws specifically have provisions for filling the office of president, RONR says your former Vice-President IS the president - whether she wants the job or not.

Our bylaws do have a specific provision for filling the office of the President, actually two.

One is the Exec Brd can nominate and vote, the other is the remaining officers rotate the position if they want.

[Steeves]

Regarding the President turning over the chair see RONR pp. 394-395 and 452-453, Regarding the VP becoming the President see RONR p. 575 ll. 6-17

Thank you!

I'll take a look see and I'll be back!

[Shmuel Gerber]

" ... as nonsensical as an Alumni of Harvard deciding that he no longer graduated from Harvard."

I agree, considering that "alumni" is the plural form of "alumnus."

(By the way, I don't know what the rules are at Harvard, but an alumnus is not necessarily one who was actually graduated; it could simply be that he attended. Maybe we should ask IPP Larry Summers.)

[Steeves]

Thank you!

I'll take a look see and I'll be back!

OK-So what happened is the 'VP not so eager to be the Pres', turned over the chair to the IPP. The IPP was part of the debate.

This means there was no presiding officer. It's simplistic enough. Is this assessment correct?

Yes...when it was two Presidents ago.

Again, simplistic. The person who is currently considered the IPP, because the two IPPs resigned (I know, please bear with me, this is their thought process) really is not the IPP. Is this assessment correct?

[Gary c Tesser]

Steeves, see your post #16. Since your bylaws have provisions for replacing a president, nothing that Robert's Rules has to say about replacing a president is pertinent for your organization. Possibly all that this thread has accomplished is that Chris Harrison and I have learned what an "alumni" is. (... A plural is what it is.)

As far as the IPP is concerned. What has not been addressed above is the argument that there is an established office called the IPP, which can sometimes exist without being occupied by the person who literally is the immediate past president -- in which case the title of that office is somewhat inaccurate. The argument goes that the person who became the IPP, by definition, upon someone else's becoming the current president, can in fact resign from the office. Yes, I am disagreeing with Mr Harrison and Dr Stackpole, which I do when I don't know what's good for me or when it's 4 AM or both. Also this question has been hashed out on this forum before, and I don't remember the resolution; more likely, there wasn't any because nobody budged.

(Oh, and after maybe a day and a half, it's not love; at best it's infatuation. I've been here 13 years and it's a barely acknowledged begrudging affection on a good day.)

(Beware the grump of Gar.)

[Steeves]

Good Morning Grumpy Gar!

OK-let's run with this then.

"The argument goes that the person who became the IPP, by definition, upon someone else's becoming the current president, can in fact resign from the office"

If this statement is correct, does the previous, previous IPP fall back into the IPP position or is the position vacant?

I contend the position is vacant.

[Gary Novosielski]

For clarity please.

Do you mean the person who was President three presidents ago can hold the IPP position?

Not any more. Only the immediate one is sufficiently, well, immediate.

Although some here will disagree, I am of the opinion that one can resign from the office of Immediate Past President. If the resignation is accepted, the person is freed of all the duties of the position, including those of board membership, just as if someone resigned as Treasurer. At that point, they are still the immediate past president, but no longer the IPP.

However, at that point you have no IPP. And there is no way to appoint one, because the only human on the planet who is qualified to hold the position just resigned. The soonest you will have one is when the current president leaves office.

[Louise]

(Oh, and after maybe a day and a half, it's not love; at best it's infatuation. I've been here 13 years and it's a barely acknowledged begrudging affection on a good day.)

Oh, no way, man. You're way off on this one, GG. I tend not to be a huge believer in this "love at first sight" crap, but I have to side with Steeves on this one. This place is something else. I love it, too. (Even if - I confess - I have been a bit neglectful of it lately...)

[Josh Martin]

Also this question has been hashed out on this forum before, and I don't remember the resolution; more likely, there wasn't any because nobody budged.

One of the more recent (and lengthy) discussions on this topic can be found here: http://robertsrules.forumflash.com/index.php?/topic/17793-past-president-resigns/

"The argument goes that the person who became the IPP, by definition, upon someone else's becoming the current president, can in fact resign from the office"

If this statement is correct, does the previous, previous IPP fall back into the IPP position or is the position vacant?

I contend the position is vacant.

I don't think I have anything to add to the "Can the IPP resign" discussion at this point (and you're welcome to view the thread I linked for plenty of discussion on it).

In any event, however, if the IPP can somehow resign, the position certainly doesn't "fall back" to a more previous past president unless your rules so provide.

[Steeves]

Thank you Mr Martin. I did a forum search in the weee hours and did find the fabulous thread you referenced.

Now, how to get this across to the members or the board will make for lots of headaches or fireworks or exploding heads.