pwilson Posted October 26, 2010 at 02:55 PM Report Share Posted October 26, 2010 at 02:55 PM (1) Does the right to change one’s vote apply to a vote by ballot?(2) If so, must the vote be retaken by ballot?One the one hand, the answer to both questions appears to be yes: The guarantee that “a member has a right to change his vote up to the time the result is announced” (RONR [10th ed.], p. 395, l. 9-10) precedes discussion of the various methods of voting and presumably applies to all of them. Furthermore, when a vote has been taken by ballot, “no motion is in order that would force the disclosure of a member’s vote” (p. 399, l. 5-6).On the other hand, the answer to the second question appears to be no, because voting by ballot occurs “only when expressly ordered by the assembly or prescribed by its rules” (p. 398, l. 12-13).There are a number of reasons one might wish to change one’s vote after the tellers’ report is read but before the result of the vote is announced, e.g., to be in a position to move a reconsideration, to make a vote unanimous or prevent one from being so, or simply to reflect a last-minute change of mind. The method of voting seems to be an entirely separate issue from the reasons for changing a vote and the right to do so.Consideration of the actual procedure for changing one’s ballot vote, however, reveals a conflict between a member’s right to anonymity and the assembly’s prerogative in determining the method of voting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Mervosh Posted October 26, 2010 at 03:08 PM Report Share Posted October 26, 2010 at 03:08 PM I don't think anything in RONR would lead one to believe a member may change his vote when the vote is by ballot. I'd suggest it's completely out of order. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Elsman Posted October 26, 2010 at 03:21 PM Report Share Posted October 26, 2010 at 03:21 PM I don't think anything in RONR would lead one to believe a member may change his vote when the vote is by ballot. I'd suggest it's completely out of order.I disagree. If the voter is willing to disclose his vote, what is said in RONR, Off. Interp. 2006-21 at the Robert's Rules of Order website, www.robertsrules.com, applies also to a vote taken by ballot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Mervosh Posted October 26, 2010 at 03:39 PM Report Share Posted October 26, 2010 at 03:39 PM I disagree. If the voter is willing to disclose his vote, what is said in RONR, Off. Interp. 2006-21 at the Robert's Rules of Order website, www.robertsrules.com, applies also to a vote taken by ballot.A recipe for disaster. I wish the OI or book were clearer on this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeeM Posted October 26, 2010 at 03:40 PM Report Share Posted October 26, 2010 at 03:40 PM A recipe for disaster. I wish the OI or book were clearer on this.My recollection was that the page 395 rule doesn't apply to ballot votes, on account of page 46 line 7. The page 46 rule then leads one to the 3 methods described on pages 44 - 45 (voice vote, rising vote, show of hands) along with a counted rising vote. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Mervosh Posted October 26, 2010 at 03:42 PM Report Share Posted October 26, 2010 at 03:42 PM My recollection was that the page 395 rule doesn't apply to ballot votes, on account of page 46 line 7. The page 46 rule then leads one to the 3 methods described on pages 44 - 45 (voice vote, rising vote, show of hands) along with a counted rising vote.Thanks, Lee. Perfect cite as always. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Honemann Posted October 26, 2010 at 03:48 PM Report Share Posted October 26, 2010 at 03:48 PM I agree with George. I do not believe that the rules relating to change of vote apply in the case of a ballot vote, although there may be an exception for those instances in which the outer envelopes of mailed in ballots have not as yet been opened. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pwilson Posted October 26, 2010 at 04:07 PM Author Report Share Posted October 26, 2010 at 04:07 PM Thank you for the quick replies. I’m unclear, however, why p. 46 would trump p. 395. The earlier section limits its discussion to the three regular methods of voting (p. 43, l. 31-32) and refers the reader (p. 44, l. 3) to the later section for a description of other methods. The later, complete account would seem to have more authority. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeeM Posted October 26, 2010 at 05:02 PM Report Share Posted October 26, 2010 at 05:02 PM The page 46 rule should be seen at the more authoritative one (for lack of a better term) because it is the more specific one (in that it lists the limitations to the rule). In that light, the page 46 rule should be considered the more complete one, not the page 395 rule. The page 395 rule is a more generalized reiteration of the page 46 rule. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Mervosh Posted October 26, 2010 at 05:46 PM Report Share Posted October 26, 2010 at 05:46 PM It's not good when the original poster and Rob both have doubts after viewing the OI (Lee's citation aside). Scrap that since p. 46 is mentioned in the OI. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Wynn Posted October 26, 2010 at 06:00 PM Report Share Posted October 26, 2010 at 06:00 PM A recipe for disaster.Pandemonium, if everyone decides to "change" their votes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Honemann Posted October 26, 2010 at 06:04 PM Report Share Posted October 26, 2010 at 06:04 PM We have some of our responders coming to the right conclusions for the wrong reasons, but I suppose that's okay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Novosielski Posted October 26, 2010 at 07:52 PM Report Share Posted October 26, 2010 at 07:52 PM I disagree. If the voter is willing to disclose his vote, what is said in RONR, Off. Interp. 2006-21 at the Robert's Rules of Order website, www.robertsrules.com, applies also to a vote taken by ballot.The problem is not solved by the member's willingness to disclose his vote. That is insufficient, because he remains unable to prove conclusively what his vote originally was.It is an invitation to fraud. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Elsman Posted October 26, 2010 at 08:33 PM Report Share Posted October 26, 2010 at 08:33 PM My recollection was that the page 395 rule doesn't apply to ballot votes, on account of page 46 line 7. The page 46 rule then leads one to the 3 methods described on pages 44 - 45 (voice vote, rising vote, show of hands) along with a counted rising vote.I'm sorry, but I don't read this the same way. What is said in RONR (10th ed.) p. 46, ll. 7-12, does not apply to a vote by ballot, since what is said in that paragraph only applies "In voting by any of these methods [voice vote, p. 44; rising vote, p. 44; or show of hands, p. 45] (including a counted rising vote)...". Indeed, the general discussion on putting the question up to that point has not dealt with the methods of voting discussed on pp. 398ff. What applies to a vote by ballot is the general rule on p. 395, ll. 9-12, which is not qualified as to which method of voting is used. Neither is RONR, Off. Interp. 2006-21 qualified as to the method of voting, other than what is said especially about a counted vote in the final paragraph of the answer. Therefore, I see no reason in the rules why a member cannot change his vote by ballot within the limits on p. 395 and Off. Interp. 2006-21, provided the member is willing to waive the secrecy of his vote. In other words, there is nothing in the rules that diminishes the limits of the voter's right to change his vote on account of which method of voting is used. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hmtcastle Posted October 26, 2010 at 08:42 PM Report Share Posted October 26, 2010 at 08:42 PM Although RONR (p.305) gives the member the benefit of the doubt when it comes to reconsidering a motion that was resolved by a ballot vote, I think it's a leap from that to permitting a member to change his ballot vote, especially after, per the original post, the tellers' report has been read. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Honemann Posted October 26, 2010 at 08:42 PM Report Share Posted October 26, 2010 at 08:42 PM I'm sorry, but I don't read this the same way. What is said in RONR (10th ed.) p. 46, ll. 7-12, does not apply to a vote by ballot, since what is said in that paragraph only applies "In voting by any of these methods [voice vote, p. 44; rising vote, p. 44; or show of hands, p. 45] (including a counted rising vote)...". Indeed, the general discussion on putting the question up to that point has not dealt with the methods of voting discussed on pp. 398ff. What applies to a vote by ballot is the general rule on p. 395, ll. 9-12, which is not qualified as to which method of voting is used. Neither is RONR, Off. Interp. 2006-21 qualified as to the method of voting, other than what is said especially about a counted vote in the final paragraph of the answer. Therefore, I see no reason in the rules why a member cannot change his vote by ballot within the limits on p. 395 and Off. Interp. 2006-21, provided the member is willing to waive the secrecy of his vote. In other words, there is nothing in the rules that diminishes the limits of the voter's right to change his vote on account of which method of voting is used.Taking this one step at a time, would you agree that, if the vote is by ballot, a member does not have a right to change his vote at any time up to the time that the chair has announced the result? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Elsman Posted October 26, 2010 at 08:49 PM Report Share Posted October 26, 2010 at 08:49 PM Taking this one step at a time, would you agree that, if the vote is by ballot, a member does not have a right to change his vote at any time up to the time that the chair has announced the result?No. A voter has the right to change his vote "...up to the time the result is announced...". RONR (10th ed.), p. 395, l. 10. For example, after the committee of tellers has made its report, I would hold that it is in order for a member to obtain the floor and demand that his vote be changed from X to Y. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Honemann Posted October 26, 2010 at 08:50 PM Report Share Posted October 26, 2010 at 08:50 PM No. A voter has the right to change his vote "...up to the time the result is announced...". RONR (10th ed.), p. 395, l. 10. For example, after the committee of tellers has made its report, I would hold that it is in order for a member to obtain the floor and demand that his vote be changed from X to Y.Even if it changes the outcome of the vote? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Elsman Posted October 26, 2010 at 08:52 PM Report Share Posted October 26, 2010 at 08:52 PM Even if it changes the outcome of the vote?The application of the rule on p. 395, ll. 9-12, is not qualified as to the effect the change of a vote would have on the result, whichever method of voting is used. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Honemann Posted October 26, 2010 at 08:59 PM Report Share Posted October 26, 2010 at 08:59 PM The application of the rule on p. 395, ll. 9-12, is not qualified as to the effect the change of a vote would have on the result, whichever method of voting is used.But these rules are to be interpreted in such a way as to make them make sense when it is possible to do so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Elsman Posted October 26, 2010 at 09:04 PM Report Share Posted October 26, 2010 at 09:04 PM But these rules are to be interpreted in such a way as to make them make sense when it is possible to do so.I agree. And, it is possible to interpret them in such a way that they make sense, in this case. The right of members under the rule of p. 395, ll. 9-12, is not diminished on account of the method of voting used. For me, at least, that's no big deal, provided a member who voted by ballot is willing to waive the secrecy of his vote. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hmtcastle Posted October 26, 2010 at 09:09 PM Report Share Posted October 26, 2010 at 09:09 PM For me, at least, that's no big deal, provided a member who voted by ballot is willing to waive the secrecy of his vote.Except that there's no way to verify his claim as to how he voted. It's no big deal when it merely allows him to make a motion to reconsider but it can be a very big deal when it allows him to affect the outcome of the vote. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Elsman Posted October 26, 2010 at 09:11 PM Report Share Posted October 26, 2010 at 09:11 PM Except that there's no way to verify his claim as to how he voted. It's no big deal when it merely allows him to make a motion to reconsider but it can be a very big deal when it allows him to affect the outcome of the vote.There's really no way to verify how a member votes when the vote is taken by voice vote, either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hmtcastle Posted October 26, 2010 at 09:13 PM Report Share Posted October 26, 2010 at 09:13 PM There's really no way to verify how a member votes when the vote is taken by voice vote, either.But a voice vote is not counted so there's no possibility of affecting the outcome by changing one's vote. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Elsman Posted October 26, 2010 at 09:16 PM Report Share Posted October 26, 2010 at 09:16 PM But a voice vote is not counted so there's no possibility of affecting the outcome by changing one's vote.This is a red herring. Neither of the rules on pp. 46, 395 have anything to do with the result of a vote. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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