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  1. What would the end result be of debating a nomination? Since a nomination does not require a second, isn't it permanent the minute it is made? Member A nominates Member B for office. Member C rises in debate to oppose the nomination. Member A speaks in favor of the nomination. No matter how persuasive Member C is, it seems to me that the nomination of Member B is still in place at the end of the debate. Am I missing something else here?
  2. We have several groups of members, some called boards and some called committees. The boards are mostly ex-officio, in that they are made up of those who are elected to various offices. The committees are mostly appointed and may or may not include officers. There are a couple of committees that are made up of the members of certain boards, and one board has both officers and three members elected as board members. Do boards and committees essentially function the same? We had a board member request funding for a project that is under their authority. This is usually done with a motion. The chair asked for a second but was "reminded" by someone else that committees making motions do not need a second. Since this group is called a board, do they still fall under such a committee rule?
  3. RONR will survive but since zombies are not known for following rules that may not matter...lol My state is not alone in restricting gatherings, so I would assume that such laws/orders would overtake the call to convention. In my city the Mayor has ordered all meeting / gathering spaces to reduce their stated occupancy by 50%, which could also effect the ability to convene.
  4. Even if it could be suspended, I would think that such a suspension could not happen at the virtual meeting that it prevented when in effect. It seems to me that such a change would need to be made in a different way than suspending a rule and would have to be made in advance of any virtual meeting.
  5. As near as I can tell from reading the entire bylaws, the only function the VP has is presiding over meetings if the president is absent. In our upcoming revision we are fixing a place where it wasn't clear that the VP assumed that role on a discipline committee that is otherwise well defined if it is the president being disciplined. Interestingly enough, when I joined we had both a president and vice president that were mostly absent and the presiding officer was more often than not a member at large of the executive board. We have corrected this situation for the most part, but it is very much a case of being careful what you wish for. It would be somewhat unseemly to list the nicknames our president is known by. I am interested in the idea that a rule for filling vacancies in all offices not including the president. If it didn't set apart our service board would it then cover the presidency or does it have to actually name the office of president? I want to make sure we get this right in the upcoming revision.
  6. The Relevant Passages are: Article XIII: Nominations & Elections Section 1: The Service Officers, Executive Officers and Executive Board Members shall be nominated in the order named at the May regular monthly meeting preceding the annual meeting. The Secretary shall at once post the list of such nominees on the bulletin board. Election shall be at the annual meeting on the Second Monday of each June by written or printed personal ballot. All newly elected Executive Officers shall assume office July 1 following the annual meeting. All newly elected Service Officers shall assume their offices immediately upon their election. Section 5: Voting Rules for the Annual Meeting are as follows: 17. In the interest of accountability to the members of the Fire Company, all candidates running for President, Fire Chief, and Assistant Fire Chief shall provide a list of their proposed plans for managing the Fire Company and its resources. This list shall be posted at least 20 days prior to the Annual (June) Meeting on the official Company bulleting board. Failure to provide such list will automatically disqualify the candidate from that position. Article XIV: Removal and Vacancies: Section 2: If a vacancy occurs in any elective office, with the exception of the Service Board, the office shall be filled, by ballot, at any regular meeting of the Company Well it all ended up being a moot point due to some back room politics. Coming out of our Executive Board meeting, which was poorly attended, I thought we had at least two interested candidates. The regular meeting voted in a very close vote (7-6) not to accept the President's resignation. Thus he remains President despite saying in his letter that he was also taking a leave of absence to deal with personal issues and would not be active as a member for the time being. Interestingly enough our Past President was very upset as he was going to run, the Chief called him up to come back and the fact that he wasn't immediately elected was a disappointment to him. To Answer Dr. Kapur, our bylaws are very clear that the Vice President does not automatically move up and further is a non-voting member of the Executive Board unless the President is absent. It is a generally powerless position.
  7. Our Fire Department President has resigned from office with a few months left in the term. We will be filling the opening this month. We have come up with a slight disagreement on how to fill the opening which I suspect is going to boil down to a letter or the law vs spirit of the law interpretation. Under normal circumstances we nominate officers at the May Meeting and elect at our annual meeting in June. The article that sets this (Article XIII) deals with the annual meeting and includes a section (Section 5) titled Voting Rules for the Annual Meeting. One of those rules (Rule 17) requires candidates for President to submit a letter of intent which must be posted in the firehouse for 20 days prior to the election. Filling of vacancies is covered under a different bylaw (Article XIV, Section 2) which says that vacancies, except for service officers (The President is not a service officer), shall be filled by ballot at any regular company meeting. There is no mention of having to nominate in a previous meeting or having to write a letter and post it in advance of the election. Our Vice President, who will be presiding at this month's meeting, believes that we can only nominate this month and that the candidates will need to submit letters of intent. I don't think we need to wait a month nor do I think there need to be letters for this vacancy to be filled as the letters are required only for the annual meeting. The VP thinks that because the bylaws have these requirements in one area that shows that we always wanted it done that way. I think that because they are in different sections that they were intended to be kept separate. The bylaws are old enough that nobody is around that can realistically speak to the intent of the authors.
  8. Asking what I hope is a related question to this (at least related enough to not taint the thread), if the bylaws require a nomination does that make a valid nomination a qualification for office? In this case wouldn't the improper nomination be not meeting the qualifications for office?
  9. Belated Merry Christmas, Happy Hanukah & Happy New Year to all.
  10. Thanks for all the help, sorry I am so late in returning but I was on vacation and am now dealing with a knee injury. What I meant by a hierarchy of documents was do we have to list anywhere in the bylaws what rules supersede other rules? SOPs have nothing to do with our meetings or parliamentary rules they are strictly operational rules about how the fire department operates (on emergency calls and training) our rules of operation are a mess and I am hoping we can get rid of them, but they seem to sit somewhere in between the bylaws and the SOPs as they contain sections that deal with specific duties of officers on scene but also contains further definitions and requirements for classes of membership. We already list RONR as the parliamentary authority although I only know of one time that we appealed to it since I have been a member. That was an unpopular ruling but it showed that the department had been doing something wrong as long as anyone could remember. What I meant by deriving their authority from the bylaws is we have a bylaw that says who can make rules (SOPs). So any rule made derives its authority from the officers who derive it from that section of the bylaws. As for bringing in a parliamentarian, that is a wonderful idea but I doubt our president would even consider it. He would never allow anything to get in the way of his running a meeting. even our own bylaws. I may just show him this thread as a guide.
  11. My fire department is in the middle of a by law revision. Our pace has slowed down but we are still working as a committee and are almost done with a proposal. There are large parts which don't need to be changed. Having just read another thread here about missing sections and having heard rumors of previous bylaws amendments that nobody seems to be able to find, I want to make sure we are going about this the right way. When we compile our final proposed revision, we are making a complete document and including the unchanged sections where they are. This way we do not accidentally delete anything. Is this correct? Also when reading the proposal, should we note areas that have no changes? Secondly as we have some other documents that come into play, so we need to list a hierarchy of documents? We obviously have to follow federal, state & local laws. We have our By-Laws but then we also have a document called Rules of Operation which I am lobbying hard to get rid of entirely and fold some sections into the by-laws as they seem to intrude into each other's scope. We also have a few standard operating procedures that cover firefighting operations but have nothing to do with parliamentary or corporate function, however they derive their authority from the bylaws. Should these relationship be included in the bylaws? Lastly, one veteran member who is not on our committee but is largely seen as a knowledge source (often incorrectly it turns out) has told the committee several times that the way a revision gets passed is that every member gets a copy and can make changes to them and then the committee has to include those changes in what finally gets voted on. This seems strange to me. It also seems to encourage conflict as there is no guarantee that all members will want the same changes. I believe that the revision should be read, moved and voted on as a yes or no vote. All at the same meeting. Is there a preferred method for this kind of vote?
  12. Our fire department has two boards, an executive board made up of the usual association officers and a service board made up of the Captains, Lieutenants & Chiefs. Each board has their duties. We also have various committees. Apart from one section requiring the Executive Board to meet to discharge a specific duty, there is nothing in the bylaws about these boards or committees meeting. Most of them don't meet at all, let alone regularly. So at our general meeting each month as reports are called for the committees generally say no report. The Chief & the President just say that their respective boards didn't meet. It seems odd to me we have various bodies that appear to do little and there is a lack of accountability. We have had a couple of recent problems with boards not doing their jobs although for the most part the jobs get done by individual officers. Short of an amendment requiring these boards to meet is there anything that can be done to compel these bodies to meet?
  13. This gets into interpreting bylaws and since I am not a member of the association my interpretation is worth nothing more than any other opinion, but I think the first line of the section shows the intent when it was written. Since before it gets to the requirements it says that the aim shall be to elect the most capable people to office then goes on to list qualifications, I would think the intent was that those qualifications were to meet that purpose.
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