Father Cadan

Because it has been my experience that this question comes up after the fact I am trying to figure out what the default is. Similar to someone saying we do not specify a quorum in any of our documents. I can show in RONR where the default is specified. If someone says we adopted the budget and then the treasure paid for budgeted items; is that allowed? I can not find a default in RON,R though I can find hints in RONR and Parliamentary Law and in Demeter's and in reviewing the Common Law of England. These hints seem to be in two camps. The first is that adopting of the budget is really receiving a report with no recommendations and therefore authorizes nothing; the second being that adopting of the budget is really a motion to 'expend up to the listed amount for the expenses of the listed category'. Where I am having a problem is in the inconsistency following the presumption of each camp. If adopting a budget is a report with no recommendations exceeding expenses in line items is not barred, a board is able to spend as much as it desires since the superior body has not limited it. If adopting a budget is an authorization the expenses are authorized only up to listed amounts for listed categories, going beyond the limits would require an amendment of the budget. The only reason I have continued this discussion for so long is that I believe that this is a fairly common problem likely to lead to legal battles, member disgruntlement etc.

I do not remember complaining. I think that when Robert referred to a budget, he assumed, and, at the time, it was likely a good assumption, that people knew what approving a budget did. Since I have had people/organizations espouse both views of budgets (i.e. they authorize spending vs they are just a bunch of numbers/a plan/guidance) I am trying to figure out what a budget is under RONR. Robert gives us sample bylaws, and I think I have figured out the answer by reading Parliamentary Law. I am still left with some problems in consistency with both views. If a budget does not authorize expenditures then adopting a budget does not limit anything. Therefore it would be in order to move to "expend $10,000 to buy computers" even though the budget only lists $1,000 in the line item for computers. The budget is what the Society planned to do the other motion is what the Society is actually doing. If, however, budgets are binding and not just plans, then the example motion in this paragraph would be out of order and the budget would first need to be amended by a 2/3 vote. I understand that when creating my own organization from scratch I can "do things however {I} want." I am asking, "What if the organization I am working with does not say one way or the other?"

The problem I have with the quote from page 461 is that I do not know if an adopted budget counts as an authorization. Do you believe that the entire Society must meet every (let's presume) two weeks to approve each payroll check? Alternatively if the budget for payroll as approved by the Society was $1, would the motion to "pay our janitor $1,000 for the work he did in the last pay period" be in order? Would the voting threshold be a majority or 2/3? I would assume that the budgeted item for Community Grants would have to be disbursed according to the terms of the grant, whatever those are. The manner in which Webster's New World Robert's Rules of Order Simplified and Applied, 2nd Edition handles the issue makes sense to me. The Society controls its general affairs by adopting a budget. The Board acting within the budget handles the day to day approval of each specific item (general supervision of day to day affairs). The Board must stay within that budget for each line item. Committees to which budgets are given must likewise stay within their assigned amounts. Grants or other line items must comply with whatever motion made them. I.e. "I move that we give the immediate past president a token of appreciation not to exceed $100 every year." This not only limits the amount but the number of times per year. Here's another wrench: The vote on the motion to "Adopt the budget as distributed" has just been completed and the Chair states: " The ayes being in the majority the motion to 'adopt the budget' is approved, the treasurer will pay the expenses of the Society accordingly.

The attached budget is for a fake organization. Using RONR sample bylaws...Article VII Section 1 "... This comittee [shall] prepare... a budget for the fiscal year... and submit it to the Society... The ... Committee may from time to time submit amendments to the budget... which may be adopted by a majority vote [of the Society]." Pg 577 ln 29 "Thus, for example, if it is desired that the assembly adopt an annual budget but that the board be empowered to alter it to deal with contingencies that may develop, the bylaws (or the budget resolution) must specifically confer this power on the board." This, in my opinion presumes that the budget authorizes spending. If it did not why would the board care to amend the budget? The board should be sending every expenditure back to the society as a recommendation. pg 461 "[The Treasurer]... cannot disburse funds except by authority of the society, or as the bylaws prescribe." The sample bylaws do not prescribe. Does the adoption of a budget give the Treasurer authority?

This is a problem I see in many organizations. They do not specify what adopting a budget means, but, like RONR, they talk about adopting one. What does the unqualified motion to adopt a budget mean? If it means nothing, i.e. confers no authority/limits no officer why bother having one?

Procedurally, what does it mean to adopt a budget. RONR uses the word budget at least three times. I do not need or want Financial Advisory Services.

Assume an organization uses the example bylaws in RONR. The attached budget is distributed to all the members at a meeting. A motion to "adopt the budget as distributed" is passed. The treasurer proceeds to write many checks during the budgeted fiscal year. Has the treasurer done something wrong?

Please find a better source to quote from.

~Webster's New World Robert's Rules of Order Simplified and Applied, 2nd Edition~ What does the unqualified motion to adopt a budget mean? Does it authorize "the person responsible" to approve the bill and further authorize the treasurer to write the check? Does it depend on how the motion to adopt the budget is worded? For example the US House 'appropriates' funds thusly: RONR 11th edition refers to adopting the budget as if we should already know what this means.

I have faith, and a PRP credential and yes the president two years from now has agreed to look at all the bylaws and 'present' an entire revision. They already have a bylaw committee, though I have no idea what they've been doing the last twenty or so years. As a general principle I agree that notice of bylaw provisions are a good idea. I also think that motions should be submitted ahead of time at conventions so that administration can schedule things and 'present' a coherent program to the delegates. In this case the motion was passes unanimously and if in twenty years someone wishes to bring a point of order for a continuing breach then the bean counters can put the money back in the reserve fund and take it back out again as that is what they have been doing and why they see it as unnecessary. The membership is the delegates in this case. The 'notice' if that's what it is only goes to non delegates, unless by chance one is an officer and a delegate. So what does Robert have to say about protecting the rights to notice of non members.... This is no where near as bad as the caucuses of the last presidential elections, but not as good as it could be, and I was asked if tabling this motion was proper... *Shudder* when the member really meant to postpone until the next session. Thank you all for your comments. It is always comforting to know that you are all just as confused as I.

What about incidental main motions... I.e. bylaw amendments? Is adopting recommendations from committees a main motion because the committees meet at convention. I really cannot figure out the intent of resolutions. RONR talks about previous notice for the "adoption of certain motions" pg 121 and then lists classes of motions as an example. If resolutions are all main motions do we not still have an impossible meeting?

Or perhaps it means 'presented' to the relevant committee chair as it States in emergency resolution part.

I'm thinking it may refer to reduced in writing in triplicate. Never is any of this notice to the delegates. It requires reeolutions to be submitted to different officers, not presented on the floor or mailed to the delegates. Is there any requirement of notice here at all? Making every motion require 45 days notice would make the meeting impossible. Unless you sent notice for recess, adjournment, reconsideration, amendment, etc 45 days in advance.

You asked for it 😛 (titles have been changed for clarification and to protect the not-so-innocent): Article X Miscellaneous Section 1. Resolutions: a. All resolutions to be presented at the Convention shall be in the hands of OFFICER at least 45 days prior to the convening Convention date. b. the OFFICER shall forward all copies of all resolutions thus received to all LOCAL ORGS and STATE OFFICERS at least 30 days prior to the convening Convention date. c. Emergency Resolutions, the subject matter of which shall have arisen at the Convention or less than 45 days prior thereto, such as resolutions of appreciation, sympathy and condolence, shall be accepted[sic] from this rule. d. All resolutions submitted to the STATE Headquarters for consideration by the STATE convention shall be submitted in triplicate. The OFFICER shall number the resolutions as received in their order of reception and shall make a permanent file to be kept at all times in their possession, of the original resolution. They shall deliver the duplicate and triplicate copies of each resolution the the Chairman of the Resolutions/ By Laws[sic] Committee at least 10 days before the Convention. The chairman of the Committee shall be charged with the responsibility of assigning the resolution to the appropriate Convention Committee, retaining for the Resolutions Committee the duplicate of said resolution, forwarding the triplicate to the special committee concerned. The triplicate copy of all emergency resolutions accepted for consideration by the State Convention shall be delivered by the OFFICER to the special committee concerned and the duplicate copy shall be delivered to the Chairman of the Committee, with an endorsement thereon showing the special committee to which the emergency resolution has been referred. e. No special committee shall report its findings or recommendations to the Convention floor. After X but not numbered or sectioned Amendments These By Laws of the STATE ORG, may be amended at the STATE Convention by a two-thirds (2/3) vote of the Delegates present and voting, provided said amendment is reduced to writing and the provisions of presentment* have been complied with. No amendment shall be active until same has been received by the NATIONAL PRESIDENT or their designee for compliance with GOVERNING DOCUMENTS. *Nowhere in any governing document, procedure etc are povisions of presentment to be found

There is nothing more in the bylaws to assist. This is the annual convention and there is a section requiring notice for resolutions, separately there is a section on amending the bylaws. No notice whatsoever: The National organization used to require the reserve account but has since removed the requirement. The state now wishes to remove the requirement as well. The proponents (which I would guess is all or nearly all of the delegates) say that the account creates unnecessary work for the treasurer and they have 1+ million in the bank anyway. The motion is worded "I move to amend the bylaws by striking Section 7 subsection H." I do not believe there are any absentees to protect as all registered delegates are present. I am thinking that a bylaw requirement to have all main motions given 45 days notice would create an impossible meeting. Is this why the notice is only for resolutions? I am still confused, but think they are OK to amend, but perhaps should ratify next time with notice. The ratification might confuse the new set of delegates. Thank you again