Father Cadan

Between the nomination and election meeting

On 4/10/2024 at 2:33 PM, Richard Brown said:

That’s true, but I think we are talking about this taking place at the nomination meeting, not at the election meeting. Nominations from the floor are permitted at the nomination meeting.  I agree that the bylaws seem clear that nominations from the floor are not permitted at the election meeting.

 

On 4/9/2024 at 6:04 PM, Richard Brown said:

s that provision in your bylaws? Or is it just a custom?

Bylaws:

 

Section 3. ELIGIBILITY FOR OFFICE. No person shall

be eligible to hold office in this club unless he/she is an

active member in good standing.

Section 4. NOMINATION MEETING. A nomination meet-

ing shall be held in March of each year or as determined

by the board of directors, with the date and place of

such meeting to be determined by the board of directors.

Notice of the meeting shall be published by regular post

or electronic means or by personal delivery to each

member of this club at least fourteen (14) calendar days

prior to the date of the meeting

Section 5. NOMINATING COMMITTEE. The president

shall appoint a nominating committee which shall submit

the names of candidates for the various club offices to

the club at the nomination meeting. At this meeting,

nominations for all offices to be filled in the succeeding

year may also be made from the floor.

Section 6. ELECTION COMMITTEE. An election meeting

shall be held in April or as determined by the board of

directors, at a time and place determined by the board of

directors. Notice of the election meeting shall be pub-

lished by regular post or electronic means or by personal

delivery to each member of the club at least fourteen (14)

calendar days prior the date of the meeting. Such notice

shall include the names of all nominees approved at the

preceding nomination meeting, and, subject to Section 3

above, a statement that these nominees will be voted

upon at this election meeting. No nominations may be

made from the floor at the election meeting.

 

Section 7. BALLOT. The election shall be conducted by

a secret written ballot by those present and qualified to

vote.

Section 9. NOMINEE UNABLE TO SERVE. If in the

interim between the nomination meeting and the election

meeting any nominee is unable for any reason to serve in

the office to which he/she was nominated and for which

office there was no other nominee, the nominating com-

mittee shall submit, at the election meeting, names of

additional nominees for that office.

On 4/9/2024 at 4:26 PM, Gary Novosielski said:

 

I'm curious why you can't have additional nominations at the election meeting.   RONR says you should.

They want only those nominated at the nomination meeting to qualify at the election meeting. I guess this gives nominees two weeks to campaign and no surprise contenders...?

We have a mandatory two week space of time between nominations and elections. Nominations are not allowed at the election meeting. After accepting nomination a member emailed the nominating committee and the secretary withdrawing from the election. 

According to our bylaws when someone is nominated at the nomination meeting and is then unable to serve for whatever reason (I assume this includes no longer desiring to serve) the nomination committee may then fill the position on the ballot.

A week after withdrawing, the member wishes to withdraw their withdrawal. 

If this were a resignation I would understand that the resignation hasn't been accepted so the resignation could be withdrawn. If this were a normal nomination immediately followed by election we could reopen nominations. 

Do withdrawn nominations need to be accepted? Does the Nomination committee having filled the spot change things? 

Most importantly what do we put on our mandatory secret ballot?

 

Thank you in advance for all the advice I've received on this forum.

 

On 3/7/2024 at 6:42 PM, Josh Martin said:

And when the board proposes these matters, are the members given previous notice of these proposals? Or do the members first learn of these proposals when they are presented at the meeting?

I wouldn't say that notice is required, but is given sometimes in the form of the agenda going out before the meeting. The agenda though would just be the topic: 'Donation to X' or 'Event X'.  We have had special meetings of the board in the middle of our membership meeting to comply with the 'board first' requirement.

On 3/6/2024 at 11:44 AM, Josh Martin said:

That's an interesting and difficult question. I think additional context may be needed.

Could you clarify further what the historical meaning and interpretation of this rule has been in the society? Does this mean that all motions proposed by members are automatically referred to the board for consideration? Or does it mean that members can't make motions at all, and only the board can make proposals to the society? If the latter, are those proposals subject to amendment?

The enforcement of this rule has been inconsistent. The interpretation generally changes when we get a new President. Sometimes it is like the rule doesn't exist. Sometimes, so long as both the Board and the membership approve the same item, the order of approval does not matter. Sometimes the item is required to be referred to the board. Sometimes it is claimed that this rule only applies to spending money. Once the board considers an item, the membership meeting is allowed to do whatever they wish, i.e. there is no scope. They would not allow a motion to refer to the board unless the board considered and shaped it first.

Inconsistency aside, I would answer that members cannot make motions at all. Once the Board considers the matter, the membership can make any motion on general category of the matter that the membership desires. The membership meetings do not take up the item as a recommendation from the board. The Board does not move to recommended X.

An alternative explanation: The Board makes a motion to donate $250 to Charity X. At the next membership meeting, motions to donate to charity X are allowed, so are motions to volunteer at a booth for the event the donation is for, or a motion on taking our bus to the event. The Board makes a motion to buy an Apple computer not to exceed $500. At the next membership meeting, motions to buy any computer for any price are allowed, since the board has considered buying a computer.

I wrote the above. I am not sure why it said I am a guest.

On 1/23/2024 at 8:39 AM, Joshua Katz said:

I'd like to think so, but I'd recommend hanging around for what others may think.

will do, thanks again

On 1/23/2024 at 8:24 AM, Joshua Katz said:

Well, I'm a bit confused. Is the "regular meeting" one of the membership or of the board?

 

FYI regular meeting of the membership is what is referred to here. The BOD then votes at its separate (I suppose regular) meeting to accept new members.

Thank you, I believe my question is answered to the best extent possible.

RONR 46:47 "...If a formal installation ceremony is prescribed, failure to hold it does not affect the time at which the new officers assume office."

The BOD votes to accept new members to a service organization. Do the prospective members become full members immediately, or must they wait until their formal installation ceremony? The bylaws state only that "The President will read membership applications at the regular meeting only when the prospective new member is present. The Board will then vote on accepting the prospective member." and "Each new member will receive a vest and name tag at time of Induction. The cost of which will be paid out of the Administrative Account."

The vest and name tags are back-orderd such that it will be at least a month before we have them. 

Thank you

On 11/24/2021 at 3:29 AM, Dan Honemann said:

As far as the rules in RONR are concerned, if this organization has not adopted rules for the giving of such notices, the requirement of notice is satisfied if written notice is sent "by postal mail to the member’s last known address" or "by a form of electronic communication, such as e-mail or fax, by which the member has agreed to receive notice."   RONR (12th ed.) 9:5

Since you say that this "calendar of events" was sent to all members by e-mail and by being "mailed to members who have not opted out of physical mailing", and also that the mailing would have been received in time to satisfy the five-day notice requirement, it would appear that the notice requirement has been satisfied. 

 

 

 

On 11/24/2021 at 6:40 AM, Rob Elsman said:

It's good to hear again from our friend, Father Cadan.  😊

Thank you both. I've been too busy. Hopefully I will not be so busy anymore and therefore can do more things... 

On 11/23/2021 at 7:51 PM, Bruce Lages said:

You say that the calendar of events is sent to the membership on a monthly basis. Is this done via email or some other electronic means? And if so, has the calendar for the month in which this rescheduled meeting will be held already been sent to the membership?

Email, and posting on the bulletin board, and mailed to members who have not opted out of physical mailing. The mailing would have been received in time to count as 5+ days notice. 

An organization publishes a calendar of events and sends this to their membership monthly. They voted to move a meeting which requires the membership to be notified. Is changing the date of the meeting on their published calendar proper notice?

On 10/22/2019 at 9:29 PM, Gary Novosielski said:

Then amend the rules to remove the ambiguity.

Because it has been my experience that this question comes up after the fact I am trying to figure out what the default is. Similar to someone saying we do not specify a quorum in any of our documents. I can show in RONR where the default is specified. If someone says we adopted the budget and then the treasure paid for budgeted items; is that allowed? I can not find a default in RON,R though I can find hints in RONR and Parliamentary Law and in Demeter's and in reviewing the Common Law of England. These hints seem to be in two camps. The first is that adopting of the budget is really receiving a report with no recommendations and therefore authorizes nothing; the second being that adopting of the budget is really a motion to 'expend up to the listed amount for the expenses of the listed category'.

Where I am having a problem is in the inconsistency following the presumption of each camp. If adopting a budget is a report with no recommendations exceeding expenses in line items is not barred, a board is able to spend as much as it desires since the superior body has not limited it. If adopting a budget is an authorization the expenses are authorized only up to listed amounts for listed categories, going beyond the limits would require an amendment of the budget.

The only reason I have continued this discussion for so long is that I believe that this is a fairly common problem likely to lead to legal battles, member disgruntlement etc.

23 hours ago, Gary Novosielski said:

I'll say this one last time.  You can do things however you want,  Complaining that RONR doesn't get deeply involved in this area is pointless, because it does not prevent you from doing things your way either.  If you like the way Webster's suggests, adopt rules to implement that system. 

Whenever you feel the urge to complain about the shortcomings of RONR in this area, stop, think about how, in your view, it should be done, and propose rules to implement that process.  I'm pretty sure that will be a better use of your time.  RONR is fairly clear, means what it says, and is very comprehensive with respect to the conduct of business.  It purposely avoids getting involved with the administrative details of the organization, leaving it up to the founders and members to run things as wisdom dictates.

 

I do not remember complaining. I think that when Robert referred to a budget, he assumed, and, at the time, it was likely a good assumption, that people knew what approving a budget did. Since I have had people/organizations espouse both views of budgets (i.e. they authorize spending vs they are just a bunch of numbers/a plan/guidance) I am trying to figure out what a budget is under RONR. Robert gives us sample bylaws, and I think I have figured out the answer by reading Parliamentary Law. 

I am still left with some problems in consistency with both views. If a budget does not authorize expenditures then adopting a budget does not limit anything. Therefore it would be in order to move to "expend $10,000 to buy computers" even though the budget only lists $1,000 in the line item for computers. The budget is what the Society planned to do the other motion is what the Society is actually doing. If, however, budgets are binding and not just plans, then the example motion in this paragraph would be out of order and the budget would first need to be amended by a 2/3 vote.

I understand that when creating my own organization from scratch I can "do things however {I} want." I am asking, "What if the organization I am working with does not say one way or the other?"

12 minutes ago, Daniel H. Honemann said:

In your example, I'm quite sure you do not believe that the mere adoption of that budget you present, with nothing more, authorizes the Treasurer to grant a $6,000 scholarship to whomever he wishes, or a Community Grant (whatever that is) of $30,000 to whomever he wishes (and so forth and so on). 

What you have quoted from RONR, on page 461, means what it says.

 

The problem I have with the quote from page 461 is that I do not know if an adopted budget counts as an authorization. Do you believe that the entire Society must meet every (let's presume) two weeks to approve each payroll check?

Alternatively if the budget for payroll as approved by the Society was $1, would the motion to "pay our janitor $1,000 for the work he did in the last pay period" be in order? Would the voting threshold be a majority or 2/3? 

I would assume that the budgeted item for Community Grants would have to be disbursed according to the terms of the grant, whatever those are.

The manner in which Webster's New World Robert's Rules of Order Simplified and Applied, 2nd Edition handles the issue makes sense to me. The Society controls its general affairs by adopting a budget. The Board acting within the budget handles the day to day approval of each specific item (general supervision of day to day affairs). The Board must stay within that budget for each line item. Committees to which budgets are given must likewise stay within their assigned amounts. Grants or other line items must comply with whatever motion made them. I.e. "I move that we give the immediate past president a token of appreciation not to exceed $100 every year." This not only limits the amount but the number of times per year.

Here's another wrench: The vote on the motion to "Adopt the budget as distributed" has just been completed and the Chair states: " The ayes being in the majority the motion to 'adopt the budget' is approved, the treasurer will pay the expenses of the Society accordingly.

7 minutes ago, Gary Novosielski said:

That depends entirely on the rules your organization has adopted, as I pointed out above.  Is your treasurer authorized to write many checks if they are within the budget?   If so, then No, if not, then Possibly.  

 

1 minute ago, Gary Novosielski said:

For planning purposes, if nothing else.  No other document so clearly conveys the priorities, goals, and values of an organization than an approved budget.

You are free to have your budget confer as much or as little authority or limitations as your organization decides is appropriate.  RONR doesn't care what decisions you reach, it only requires that you reach them in an orderly and democratic manner.  

The adoption of an unqualified motion to approve a budget may mean that not enough thought has gone into the process.

The attached budget is for a fake organization.

Using RONR sample bylaws...Article VII Section 1 "... This comittee [shall] prepare... a budget for the fiscal year... and submit it to the Society... The ... Committee may from time to time submit amendments to the budget... which may be adopted by a majority vote [of the Society]."

Pg 577 ln 29 "Thus, for example, if it is desired that the assembly adopt an annual budget but that the board be empowered to alter it to deal with contingencies that may develop, the bylaws (or the budget resolution) must specifically confer this power on the board." This, in my opinion presumes that the budget authorizes spending. If it did not why would the board care to amend the budget? The board should be sending every expenditure back to the society as a recommendation.

pg 461 "[The Treasurer]... cannot disburse funds except by authority of the society, or as the bylaws prescribe." The sample bylaws do not prescribe. Does the adoption of a budget give the Treasurer authority?

1 minute ago, jstackpo said:

RONR doesn't say.  

In the Federal Government budget process there is a distinction between "Authorize" (spending) and "Appropriate" (money).

(At least I think that may be the distinction; I could never keep them straight.  I didn't do budgets in my working career.)

What does your "Alliance" consider "adopt" to mean? Authorize?  Appropriate? Both?  Neither?  Only your association knows for sure. (Like hair color)

This is a problem I see in many organizations. They do not specify what adopting a budget means, but, like RONR, they talk about adopting one. What does the unqualified motion to adopt a budget mean? If it means nothing, i.e. confers no authority/limits no officer why bother having one?

4 minutes ago, jstackpo said:

 

Read Gary R.'s note just preceding yours.

RONR is a procedural handbook, not a Financial Advisory service.

Procedurally, what does it mean to adopt a budget. RONR uses the word budget at least three times. I do not need or want Financial Advisory Services.

Assume an organization uses the example bylaws in RONR. The attached budget is distributed to all the members at a meeting. A motion to "adopt the budget as distributed" is passed. The treasurer proceeds to write many checks during the budgeted fiscal year. Has the treasurer done something wrong?

1 hour ago, George Mervosh said:

If you're quoting from this horrible source, I don't know anyone here who can help you.

Please find a better source to quote from.

Quote

The budget 

Many organizations work from a yearly budget. Usually the treasurer prepares the budget with the help of the financial committee, the committee chairmen, and perhaps the executive board. The budget is then submitted to the members for approval. A budget is a guide for spending; it is not set in stone. It can be amended by the members when it is presented for adoption, and even after it is adopted. 

Usually, when a bill is received that is within the budget, the person responsible for that budget item, such as a committee chairman, signs the bill as approved and gives it to the treasurer for payment. For example: The Buildings and Grounds Committee has a budget of $2,000 for painting. When bids were taken for painting, the lowest bid was $1,950. A contract was signed and when the job was completed, a bill was received for $1,950. The chairman of the Building and Grounds Committee approves the bill by signing his name and writing the words "approved for payment," and sends it to the treasurer who then pays the bill. However, some organizations may still require membership approval for the expenditure to be paid even though it is within a budgeted amount. 

If the budget has not allotted enough for painting, and the lowest bid is for $2,050, the chairman of the Building and Grounds Committee must get membership approval for the additional expense before contracting for the painting. 

If an organization does not work from a budget, each expenditure must have prior approval by the membership unless an organization has a rule stating differently. In this situation, the Building and Grounds Committee would get estimates for painting and submit them to the membership for a vote. After the membership decides on which bid to accept, the Building and Grounds Committee chairman can then enter into a contract with the company, and the work can be done. When the bill is received and the committee is satisfied with the work done, the treasurer pays the bill.

~Webster's New World Robert's Rules of Order Simplified and Applied, 2nd Edition~

What does the unqualified motion to adopt a budget mean? Does it authorize "the person responsible" to approve the bill and further authorize the treasurer to write the check? Does it depend on how the motion to adopt the budget is worded? For example the US House 'appropriates' funds thusly:

Quote

That the following sums are appropriated, out of any money in the Treasury not otherwise appropriated, for the fiscal year ending September 30, 2020, and for other purposes, namely... For necessary expenses of the Committee on Foreign Investment in the United States, $20,000,000, to remain available until expended: Provided, That the chairperson of the Committee may transfer funds provided under this heading to a department or agency represented on the Committee...

RONR 11th edition refers to adopting the budget as if we should already know what this means.

 

2 minutes ago, jstackpo said:

Looks like Fr. Cadan should prepare a resolution to establish a Bylaws Review Committee to straighten this mess out, in consultation with a professional parliamentarian, of course.

But he's gonna have to get the resolution in (to somebody) 45 days ahead of time....or else....

I have faith, and a PRP credential and yes the president two years from now has agreed to look at all the bylaws and 'present' an entire revision. They already have a bylaw committee, though I have no idea what they've been doing the last twenty or so years.

As a general principle I agree that notice of bylaw provisions are a good idea. I also think that motions should be submitted ahead of time at conventions so that administration can schedule things and 'present' a coherent program to the delegates. In this case the motion was passes unanimously and if in twenty years someone wishes to bring a point of order for a continuing breach then the bean counters can put the money back in the reserve fund and take it back out again as that is what they have been doing and why they see it as unnecessary.

The membership is the delegates in this case. The 'notice' if that's what it is only goes to non delegates, unless by chance one is an officer and a delegate. So what does Robert have to say about protecting the rights to notice of non members....

This is no where near as bad as the caucuses of the last presidential elections, but not as good as it could be, and I was asked if tabling this motion was proper... *Shudder* when the member really meant to postpone until the next session.

Thank you all for your comments. It is always comforting to know that you are all just as confused as I.

21 minutes ago, Daniel H. Honemann said:

Well, at the very least I assume that "resolutions" means main motions.

What about incidental main motions... I.e. bylaw amendments? Is adopting recommendations from committees a main motion because the committees meet at convention.

 

I really cannot figure out the intent of resolutions. RONR talks about previous notice for the "adoption of certain motions" pg 121 and then lists classes of motions as an example. If resolutions are all main motions do we not still have an impossible meeting?

6 minutes ago, Father Cadan said:

I'm thinking it may refer to reduced in writing in triplicate. Never is any of this notice to the delegates. It requires reeolutions to be submitted to different officers, not presented on the floor or mailed to the delegates. Is there any requirement of notice here at all?

Making every motion require 45 days notice would make the meeting impossible. Unless you sent notice for recess, adjournment, reconsideration, amendment, etc 45 days in advance.

Or perhaps it means 'presented' to the relevant committee chair as it States in emergency resolution part.