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Newbie

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  1. I'll second that. (Can I do that? 😉 )
  2. A few replies ago, I asked: So without being too long-winded on this matter, would it be appropriate for our board to perhaps cherry pick some items from the proposed rules and use those to develop our own "Special Rules of Order"? Mr. Martin replied "Yes". (And I understand now that this probably did not include taking the small board rules out of the book.) So I went off in search of various "special rules of order". Many of these were copied exactly out of RONR. Some were cherry-picked from various other documents or internet sources. That's why some may be somewhat redundant. I'm not trying to re-invent the wheel, but perhaps taking spokes from different wheels. Recall that my current board really doesn't know RONR at all. Mr. Martin later suggested: "This is already permitted under the small board rules in RONR. See RONR, 11th ed., pgs. 487-488. Since you seem to be proposing the adoption of most (perhaps even all) of those rules, it may be simpler to specify that the small board rules shall be used, and then provide any exceptions. "I would suggest instead that those who are more knowledgeable on the subject draft a “cheat sheet” as a guide to the rules in RONR, rather than restating the rules from RONR in the special rules of order." Unfortunately, we have no one who is more knowledgeable. I think I'm the only one on our board that has any of the Robert's Rules books. I will try to propose that our group pays to purchase the "in Brief" copy for all our board members. Since folks don't have the books (and thereby pgs. 487-88) I thought that since I can't get the people to the books, I'd try to get (relevant sections of) the book to the people. Thanx to those that replied with helpful comments and suggestions. We need to stand before we can walk, much less run.
  3. Thank you, Mr. Kapur. To answer your question, I'll say we didn't "just adopt them" for a couple of reasons. First, I wasn't aware that we could do that. This comes under the subject of "we don't know what we don't know". Second, I'm not aware of anyone else on our board that actually has a copy of RONR, in Brief, or even "for Dummies". Many of those proposed rules, as you and Mr. Brown can attest to, are directly from RONR. I feel that we need to formally state them and have them on record in our documentation. So for those that don't have RONR, don't want RONR, or don't plan to acquire a copy of RONR, we at least have some ground rules to go by. We informally do several of these things already. I guess it evolved from "tribal knowledge" from a few members or the mere fact that nobody knew the actual proper procedures. No one stands to seek recognition; motions are made while seated; we can discuss matters without a motion being made.
  4. I would love to be able to do that with our board, although apathy might be overwhelming. As a curiosity, how long would a typical training session go, and most importantly, how many $$$?
  5. I have shamelessly copied, borrowed, stolen, and otherwise fabricated the following "special rules of order". I plan on submitting these at our board meeting next week. I'd appreciated any words of wisdom as to if these would be considered acceptable or if some might get me into trouble. I understand that our governing documents take precedence if there are any conflicts. So far, I haven't seen any, but the experience on this forum will see things that I don't. Thanx. I move to adopt the following as special rules of order: 1) The BOD is authorized to allocate funds up to $100 for the purpose of allowing for a bereavement gift (of flowers or a donation to a recognized charity) to the family of a resident who may pass during the year. (Note: The gift is for legal residents of the association. A resident’s friend or relative who may have passed does not qualify. Personal condolences would be up to individual residents acting on their own behalf.) 2) Board members may raise a hand instead of standing when seeking to obtain the floor, and may remain seated while making motions or speaking. 3) Motions proposed at a meeting, unless very short and simple, should always be in writing. 4) Motions need not be seconded. 5) A board member may speak any number of times (not just twice) on a debatable question, except that the regular rules apply to appeals, and speeches will be limited to 3 minutes (instead of 10). 6) No board member may speak to an issue for a third time until all other board members have had the opportunity to speak to it for a second time. 7) A motion does not have to be pending in order to discuss a subject informally. 😎 In putting questions to a vote, the chairman need not stand. 9) Votes can be taken initially by a show of hands. 10) If a proposal is perfectly clear to everyone, it may be voted on even though no formal motion has been made. 11) The chairman, as a member of the board, can, without giving up the chair, participate in debate, make motions, and vote on all questions. 12) A time is provided for the unit owners to speak, but that forum is limited to 3 minutes per unit owner and is not an open debate. Once the open forum is closed, only board members and the secretary may speak. A unit owner or a guest may be recognized to speak only if a board member wishes to obtain input from a unit owner and the board agrees. 13) Once the open forum period is closed, unit owners are not allowed to participate and may not seek to be recognized unless the board specifically requests input or information from a particular unit owner. 14) Unfinished business from the previous meeting should be addressed prior to any new agenda items. 15) Changes to the agenda should be done by acquiescence of all board members. 16) Annual meeting minutes will be reviewed and approved at the next regularly scheduled board meeting. 17) The minutes of the previous meeting are not the official minutes of the board unless and until the board votes to accept them. 18) Minutes should state precisely each original main motions, and motions to bring a question again before the assembly which relate to original main motions or to rules of the association considered by the board, and identify those board members voting in favor, against, or abstaining, and whether the motion was carried. 19) In the event that a board member believes that an action by the board is unlawful, contrary to the power and authority of the board, or not in the best interests of the Association, that board member may make an oral or written dissent explaining the reasons why he or she believes that a dissent is necessary. The oral or written dissent shall become part of the minutes. 20) Dissents by a board member should be fully stated in the minutes. 21) No decisions, resolutions, or motions may be adopted in executive session. 22) By a majority vote of the board, the president or other incumbent Chair may be removed from the Chair and any other board member may be assigned to Chair the meeting. 23) The agenda for the regular meetings of the board shall be e-mailed to the board members at least seven days before the meeting and shall include any items received by the secretary no later than ten days before the meeting. Additional items may be placed on the agenda for consideration during the meeting with the consent of a majority of the members present and voting. 24) The fact that a motion has been adopted or failed does not prevent the item of business from being added to the agenda in the future and all motions may be revisited at any time by the board.
  6. In reading Robert's Rules for Dummies, on page 24 is a chart. It indicates that to adopt special rules of order requires previous notice and two-thirds vote, or a majority of the entire membership. Also found this in RONR in Tables page 6. First, since it requires two-thirds vote even with previous notice, would it matter if previous notice was not given? It would still be two-thirds, right? Or would this mean that a motion to adopt would be out of order since previous notice was not given? Second, back to the term "majority of the entire membership", I think that means our entire association in this instance, correct? Is it better to propose special rules of order one by one, or as a group of special orders? Thanx.
  7. That is an impressive path forward to become accredited. I applaud those of you on this forum who provide the guidance and suggestions to the less informed, and in some cases, uninformed of us seeking enlightenment.
  8. We had a similar situation just a couple of days ago. A relatively new owner and I were discussing various things and he mentioned that he had a leak over his front door. Our buildings have a small porch covering the front door area. There was a brownish leak coming from the soffit panels that make up the ceiling of the porch and it was dripping along the ceiling and down various points on the vinyl siding and storm door. After asking what he'd done so far, I suggested that he email our Property Manager and copy our BOD email address (which only goes to Prez & Treasurer). So he did that, and then our Prez sent an email to the Property Manager asking that she send someone out from the Management Firm to check out this leak. Are you guys suggesting that this all needs to be motioned, seconded, approved, and put into our minutes? Our next meeting isn't for about 3 weeks. We'd like to have the leak checked out well before our next scheduled meeting. Nobody else agreed that this was a good idea, (and no one objected) but if we did, it likely would have been done by email, apparently a no-no per RONR. (Our Bylaws don't specify we can email vote.) Can you explain more about "general consent" and how it might work in our case? Or, if it doesn't. Thanx.
  9. I was once certified in the American Production and Inventory Control Society (APICS). It involved study in 7 or 8 different fields of materials management with course offerings either through after hours work sessions and/or formal courses at local colleges for which one could earn credits towards a degree. How involved is it to become a Registered Parliamentarian? Not that I'm so inclined based on the complexity of some of the issues I'm seeing on this forum, but just a point of curiosity.
  10. Here are some of the "thresholds" as established in our Bylaws. Most seem pretty clear. any member may be removed from membership on the Board of Directors by an affirmative vote of two thirds (2/3) of the Unit Owners. Unless otherwise expressly provided in the Declaration, any action may be taken at any meeting of The Association of Owners upon the affirmative vote of a majority of the Owners present and voting in person or by proxy, provided that a quorum is present as provided for above. The fiscal year may be changed by the unanimous consent of the Directors or by vote of The Association. (Although it doesn't specify by what margin for the vote of the association.) Special Meetings: Said meetings shall be called by written notice, signed by a majority of the Board of Directors, or by the Owners having one-forth (1/4) of the total votes, and delivered not less than seven (7) days prior to the date fixed for said meeting. The offices of Secretary and Treasurer may, by vote of The Association at any annual meeting be combined as one office. (Percentage not specified.) The Condominium Instruments may be amended only by an instrument in writing approved and agreed to by Owners of Units to which two-thirds (2/3) of the voting power in The Association appertain, Subsequent to the conveyance of a Unit to an Owner other than The Declarant the prior written approval of the first mortgagees of Units to which sixty-seven percent (67%) of the voting power of The Condominium Instruments which amendment would have the effect of altering: Considering in these last two statements which reference 2/3 of the owners of units: If someone was proposing a bylaw change and a special meeting was called, and general apathy set in whereby only 8 unit owners showed up and the vote was 5 for and 3 against, would that mean the bylaws could not be changed? We actually need 18 to change a bylaw. Edited to add quorum requirement: The presence at any meeting of The Association of twenty-five (25%) percent of Owners, in person or by written proxy, in response to notice of all Owners of record given in accordance with Section II., Subparagraph "A" or "B" of these Bylaws, shall constitute a quorum.
  11. I'm reading RONR in Brief and came across a section that I'm still a bit unclear about. I did read the applicable section in RONR. In the second edition, on page 67, section "3" describes the entire membership concept. The last sentence on the page tries to differentiate between "general membership" and a "board". So the phrase "a majority of the entire membership of the board, not the whole organization" is throwing me off. In our case, that would mean 4 out of 7 on our board or 14 out of 26 on our home owners. Perhaps this is one of those parliamentary definitions that doesn't translate well to common language. Why not just say "a majority of the board" in that sentence? When I hear the term "entire membership" I'm thinking it means all our home owners (in my case). To take this a step further, and this likely will require another visit to our Bylaws, but let's just stick with the RONR interpretation - at annual elections, conducted by ballot vote at an annual meeting, not every home owner attends. We have 26 owners. At our annual meeting, 3 owners did not attend and did not submit proxy forms. What would our majority be? 14 out of 26; or 12 out of 23? And when is it appropriate to use the "majority of those present and voting"? In the previous example, does that get us down to the 12 our of 23 scenario? I'll assume a valid proxy form is allowed even though the person is not actually "present". Thanx.
  12. I agree that the wording can be tricky sometimes. Especially when common words have a different meaning in parliamentary language. We have the wording below in our governing document: "II. Not less than once each quarter, and at such additional times as may be specified in the condominium bylaws, the board of directors shall, subject to the provisions of RSA 356-B:37-d, hold an open regular meeting during which unit owners shall be afforded a reasonable opportunity to comment on any matter affecting the association. At its discretion, the board of directors may meet in a meeting not open to unit owners provided the meeting is recorded and the recording is made available to unit owners for up to 30 days upon request." So we can have meetings "not open" to unit owners. Remember the TV game show "Password"? The clue is "not open"; the answer is "closed". 😉 In our case, having to record an entire meeting and make it available seems odd. I think we'd still need to take and approve minutes.
  13. Regarding use of the roll call vote, I agree that calling for a recess should not require a roll call vote that gets entered into the minutes. But I would like our association to see which directors voted for/against certain motions that either were passed or rejected. I don't think RONR specifies a roll call vote except in certain situations with board approval. So what kind of wording might be appropriate to include as a special rule of order to describe which types of motions would qualify and use a roll call vote?
  14. We have some board members who prefer springing surprises on the group. Only a few members will have the information and then will try to railroad it through because others don't know better or how to suppress it.
  15. Actually, the phrases do not appear in our Declaration or Bylaws, only our state statute. 356-B:37 Meetings. VI. The secretary or other designee duly authorized by the board of directors shall take minutes of all meetings held in accordance with this section and RSA 356-B:37-c. The board of directors shall make copies of the minutes of all meetings available to the unit owners within 60 days of the meeting or 15 days of the date such minutes are approved by the board, whichever occurs first. The association may opt to provide the minutes electronically or publish them on the association website, in which case the owners shall be informed of the web address. An electronic or paper copy of all meeting minutes shall be available to the unit owners for at least 3 years after the date of the meeting. The board shall respond to a unit owner's written request for the minutes within 15 days of receipt of the request. 356-B:37-a Notice to Unit Owners. – An association shall deliver any notice required to be given by the association under this chapter to any mailing or electronic mail address a unit owner designates. If the unit owner does not designate an address, the association shall deliver notices by hand delivery, United States mail postage paid, or commercially reasonable delivery service to the mailing address of each unit. 356-B:37-e Disclosure of Financial Information and Meeting Minutes to Unit Owners. V. The board of directors shall make copies of the minutes of all meetings available to the unit owners within 60 days of the meeting or 15 days of the date such minutes are approved by the board, whichever occurs first. The association may opt to provide the minutes electronically or publish them on the association website, in which case the owners shall be informed of the website address. A unit owner who submits a written request for access to the association's website shall be granted access within 15 days of the request, at no additional charge to the owner. VI. The board of directors may approve the minutes through the use of electronic means such as email, video conferencing, fax machine, or PDF files transmitted over the Internet. ======= Since our governing documents are in either Word or PDF format, I can search for specific words. So I search for words like "email", "e-mail", "electronic" to see where they appear. It appears that our board can notify owners of meetings and send minutes via e-mail. Our approved minutes are published on a website. And the one thing the board can do by e-mail is to approve minutes which is very specific. So simply creating a special rule of order would not be sufficient? We would still require an amendment to the bylaws? If the bylaws were amended, would there even be a need to create a special rule of order? I guess all this may depend upon the wording that was added to the bylaws.
  16. I've tried to read as many of the posts on this subject that I could find here. Our state statute identifies RONR as our parliamentary authority for meetings. Our state statute has only 1 mention of e-mail (or email): " VI. The board of directors may approve the minutes through the use of electronic means such as email, video conferencing, fax machine, or PDF files transmitted over the Internet." Our Declaration and Bylaws do not mention email, but references the option to send out ballots electronically. We have members who wish to make motions and vote via e-mail. One member suggested that they would provide a reference that authorizes us as a board to conduct business by email throughout the month, as long as we affirm all of the actions at the next official Board meeting by having someone make a motion to accept the actions taken by the Board via email. First question, is that permissible and where would I find that? I'm not sure where this member has found such a reference, but I suspect it's probably not valid under RONR. Second question. If people push hard enough on this could/should we include e-mail voting as a special rule of order? If so, how would we structure that? I'm not keen on e-mail voting, but for some small, incidental matters, perhaps it could be workable? I don't want it to evolve into special meeting subject e-mail voting. Thanx.
  17. Curious if the "upcoming vote" is to remove someone from the board. Although you did mention that other names might be written in. I thought elections (using ballot voting) required a simple majority for election. But as you can tell by my forum moniker, I'm new at this.
  18. Thanx to all that replied. While I am still awaiting delivery of my RONR in Brief copy, I've gone over the "proposed rules" several times. There are definitely a lot of aspects of that document that I don't care for. Being new to parliamentary activity, I'm not sure I can even properly express why I don't like some of them - they just seem a bit off. At the same time, there are some things that I wouldn't mind including. One of those is this one: "Minutes should state precisely each motion considered by the board, and identify the board members voting in favor, against, or abstaining..." I would like our association members to know exactly who voted for and against various motions. My inexperienced knowledge of RONR thinks this would be the roll call vote which may only be applicable in certain situations. Can we make a special rule that says all votes would be by roll call method? So without being too long-winded on this matter, would it be appropriate for our board to perhaps cherry pick some items from the proposed rules and use those to develop our own "Special Rules of Order"? I think we can put in the "Special Rules of Order" as a board with previous notice and a two-thirds vote (or a majority of the entire membership). Is that correct? Trying to get a majority or two-thirds of the entire membership would be tough because a lot of folks may not have enough interest in the matter. If going this route is permissible, I'd appreciate any guidance and specific wording for a motion to do so. And, any special rules that folks have found to be useful. (One that I've seen a few times is about the length of time members are allowed to speak and to change that from the RONR 10 minutes to maybe 3 minutes.)
  19. Sorry for any confusion I may have caused. I was primarily responding to: "I've been Vice-President for the last 2 years with the assumption that I would then move into the President role." Our Bylaws (different organization) provide for automatic nomination to President, but apparently not to automatically become President.
  20. Thanx, Zev. I checked out the NAP site. There were several cards which were part of an overall set. Do you know the specific card you referred to? Our group is hardly sophisticated - quite the opposite. It's why they'd prefer not to have to deal w/ RONR and deal w/ an inferior tool instead. And what happens when something comes up that their 11 pages doesn't cover??
  21. Thanx for the comments, Josh. For me, "fairer and thorough" is preferred. For others, simplest or least amount of work regardless of outcome floats their boat. As a softball official, I do not bring my rules book to the field with me. If working a tournament where certain rules are amended, I'll print that and keep it in my pocket. Anything that is not amended by the special tournament rules revert to the standard rules. Given my current unfamiliarity w/ RONR, trying to look up something in a meeting would be very awkward. And credibility would suffer if it was something that I couldn't put my finger on immediately. And often times, reading something on one page references something in other multiple locations. That's why I try to do my homework in advance of meeting subjects and try to anticipate issues before they come up. In general, I (we) don't know the rules well enough to ensure we're doing things properly.Things like when do we need majority, two-thirds, majority of those present and voting, or majority or two-thirds of the entire community. Most softball rules have become second nature to me, RONR will take a while longer. My RONR in Brief copy should arrive any day now. "Two hundred pages?! Who reads 200 pages?? I can name that tune in 11 pages!" 😏
  22. Our relatively young HOA employs a BOD of 7 Directors. Most are either unaware of or unfamiliar with RRs. I've been diligently attempting to come up to speed on parliamentary procedures. When I refer to either our governing documents or RRs many members are skeptical that what I'm claiming is incorrect. This, despite the fact that I always provide citations and/or cut and paste relevant sections in e-mails or word documents. As a board, we've done some things that we shouldn't have. Some relate to our Bylaws which I won't discuss in this forum. One thing we did was to suppress a resident's voting rights in our most recent election. The resident was not even aware that their vote wasn't counted. I now have a very good understanding of that matter due to RRs inclusion of the definition of "good standing". And in our case, our governing documents do not document the removal of voting rights or other common privileges. We have one board member that wants to scrap our using RRs as our parliamentary process. Our state statue provides this guidance: " III. Except as otherwise provided in the bylaws, meetings of the association shall be conducted in accordance with the most recent edition of Roberts' Rules of Order Newly Revised." The arguments for this proposal are along the lines of: Has anyone read RRs? Six hundred pages! Who reads RRs?! I've found a document that we can utilize and it's only 11 pages. What's better, 11 pages or 600 pages?? I'm going to send you all a link to it so you can review it and we can discuss it at our next meeting. As someone new to RRs, I must say that it is a bit overwhelming especially at first (and even at second). But I'm willing to get into it and try to understand how things are supposed to work. Sadly, many of our board members are likely to embrace the "rules of order (extremely lite)" version. I fear we will get into trouble going this route. These folks likely believe that we can simply adopt this new document with a simple majority vote in a board meeting. I believe it would take an amendment to our Bylaws and that would require a two-thirds vote of the entire membership of our 26 units (18 out of 26, correct?). I've attached this proposed document in the event someone wishes to offer some suggestions as to why we shouldn't go this route. I have some thoughts, which I'll not enter now. But it would feel like entering a demolition derby driving a tricycle and wearing only knee pads. Thanx for any guidance. The document attached contains highlights that are mine. If this violates any forum guidelines, please let me know. The document does allow use by various associations provided the copyright remains intact. Perhaps some of you are already familiar with this document. Proposed Rules of Order.pdf
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