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Found 27 results

  1. Is there any situation where a point of order that has been appealed can be tabled until the next meeting to give the group who will be voting time to research it?
  2. I recently chaired a meeting and want to make sure I followed the rules. At the conclusion of debate (the special rules of order set an overall time limit on debate), a member stood to be recognized, was recognized, and moved to extend debate by two minutes. The motion was seconded and failed. This same member then stood to be recognized, was recognized, and moved to extend debate by one minute. The motion was seconded and failed. The same member then stood to be recognized, was recognized, and moved to extend debate by 45 seconds. I ruled the motion dilatory, as it seemed clear the meeting did not want to continue debate. The maker of the motion appealed the decision of the chair. I gave the first speech in debate, others spoke (no more than once), and I spoke last. We voted, and the meeting voted to maintain the decision of the chair. Was all of this proper?
  3. Ok...short synopsis of what I face...this is an extension of my previous question regarding resignation/quorum concerns. This blow up took place in January meeting because after consulting with an attorney a course of action was deemed not legally sustained by our current bylaws and even though the direction was supported by the POA members unanimous vote in 2015 the correct paper work was not presented and filed by our former attorney. Some members, who clearly wanted to exploit our weak moment argued that rather than allow the attorney to draw up corrected documents to remedy that, we should completely revise our bylaws...the blow up prevented an consensus or quorum vote. In the nest meeting that I did not attend a vote of a quorum is stated in the minutes as, "The second order of business discussed moving forward with ____________law frim on getting bylaws legal. ____recommendation was that we move ahead with this plan of action. The motion was made by ____ and seconded. The board voted with 100% carry of motion". The minutes do not contain any of the recommendations that preceded this. I was TOLD it was recommended each member bring in 2 suggestions for change to be discussed and sent to the attorney. Here is hiccup #2 At the NEXT meeting that was diminished to 3 that view themselves as a legal quorum (questionable based on state law) a COMMITTEE of 2 was formed to revise the bylaws. I am uncertain how to proceed. My OBJECTIVE is to challenge the formation of this committee with a motion to challenge the legality of the 3 party quorum claim. . The objective is to get them to rescind their previous decision voluntarily or force the issue back to the attorney. Should I enter a POINT of Order regarding their previous actions based on my belief they are in error ...they will intend to blast forward so my actions must be consistent with RR's of order. Or should I make the motion to suspend any action until an attorney rules and then within the DEBATE present the option of rescinding since we will have returned to what is without question a legal quorum of 5. My terms may not be accurate here as I am just learning the language.
  4. Our society uses RONR (11th ed.) as our parliamentary authority. At a recent special meeting of our society, a point of order as an incidental main motion was raised by the chair and declared well taken. This point was not mentioned in the call to the meeting (nor on a prepared agenda distributed beforehand). The point was concerning a supposed violation, around a year prior, of a rule in the bylaws requiring a vote to be taken by ballot, which would qualify it as exempt from the timeliness requirement of points of order (RONR p. 251 ll. 20-23). Those voted in under the supposed violation were still in office. The timeliness requirement exception states that the point may be made "at any time during the continuance of the breach." (RONR p. 251 ll. 3-7, emphasis added). However, again, the point was not incident to the business stated on the call to the meeting (which qualifies it as an incidental main motion). I have three questions: Can this point have been validly made at this special meeting? Did this point violate the rights of those absent from the meeting? Should the chair, who is a member, have been able to make this point while presiding, if it were a regular meeting? (it is a large assembly of over 100 present from a body of over 500)
  5. Guest

    Point of Order

    Can the parliamentarian raise a "point of order" during the meeting?
  6. Guest

    Ballot to Dissolve

    I am the incorporator and founder of our guild which was established 8 years ago. Our bylaws require Ballots to be sent out and members allowed 30 days to vote. The deadline is specified on the ballot. The bylaws also allow 10% of the membership to request amendments to the bylaws by written request. A group of members wanting to kill our guild showed up at a regular meeting and without prior notice made a motion dissolve the guild. They passed out pieces of paper for the members in attendance to vote whether they want to put out a ballot to dissolve the guild. 10% of our membership is 4 and there was about 20 members at the meeting. They got their four votes and started passing out ballots and emailed ballots to all members the next day. They already had a ballot made up and passed them out at the meeting. The ballot contained 3 items ... see attached Subsequent discussion suggested members wanted a meeting to hear all sides of this issue so a meeting special meeting was held. At that meeting I called a point of order for the ongoing breach of a ballot to dissolve the guild that was done without advance notice included it the meeting which it was done. I cited Missouri Revised Statute Chapter 355.251 and Roberts Rule of Order Article 8 section 47 as support for my point...see attachment The point was well taken and it was ruled that the ballot is null and void. I have been told the members that started this action are now getting a lawyer? I am very interested in hearing any observations? Were they out of order to bring that to a meeting unannounced? Are my references correct as to why they can't do that? Am I the only one who sees the wording on the ballot is clearly biased? Since to Point of Order ruling went unchallenged isn't everything else moot? Thank you
  7. If there is a non-member who is attending a meeting of an organization as a guest, and they notice an error regarding parliamentary procedure, are they allowed to make a point of order, or get someone to make one on their behalf, and then they speak about the matter to the chair? If a guest at a meeting is not actually a parliamentarian and not officially serving in that role, but the guest is the most well-versed on parliamentary procedure, can the chair utilize that person for assistance with parliamentary procedure issues?
  8. If the chair is persuaded during debate on an appeal that his ruling on a point of order was erroneous, may he withdraw the ruling before it becomes precedent, or at least inform the assembly of his change of mind during his second speech at the close of debate? The former alternative would be analogous to a member withdrawing (or seeking permission to withdraw) a motion, although I can find no reference in RONR that would justify the chair withdrawing a ruling. The latter alternative would be similar to a member arguing against his own motion, which no member is allowed to do. What’s the best way for the chair to handle such a change of mind? Should the minutes include the reasons the chair gives during an appeal, or just the reasons he gives while ruling on the point of order itself?
  9. Our Annual HOA (Homeowner's Assoc.) meeting was conducted very loosely with no opportunity for discussion before voting. There was a Quorum. Proxies were submitted. Notes were taken by the Sec'y. No one raised any Points of Order. It was my first meeting. Certain items that passed involved raising everyone's Assoc. Dues. Q: Is that meeting's Business and voting now Null and Void? Q: Board of Directors President has called for a SPECIAL MEETING to resolve the mess and someone questions the NEED for this new SPECIAL MEETING and I am left wondering how to respond.
  10. There are some actions which, upon a timely Point of Order, will turn: (a.) an adopted motion; into (b.) a null-and-void motion. *** There are at least three kinds of behavior which will trigger the above change: (1.) Previous notice was insufficient. -- A member(s) was/were not mailed the notice. (2.) A member(s) was/were not allowed to attend a meeting. (3.) A member(s) was/were not allowed to vote at a meeting. *** Of the above listed behaviors, there is a circumstance where (a.) the adopted motion will stand. (b.) the adopted motion will be rendered null and void. *** Given a timely Point of Order: Q. Which of the behaviors have a circumstance where the adopted motion will stand? Q. Which of the behaviors will always render an adopted motion as null and void? *** The reader may wish to review some key pages in RONR: (1.) page 252, "Remedy for violation of the right to vote". (2.) page 445, the paragraph which begins, "Otherwise, an election may be contested by . . ." and its bullet items. ***
  11. Hello, This Tuesday our student government voted to pass a motion affirming the results of the election commission. However, it has come to my attention that a portion of the election commission bylaws violates students' fundamental rights guaranteed by the U.S. Constitution. The election results were tabulated with deductions for campaign violations, as per the election bylaws. For example, a candidate violated the university's posting policy and 80 votes were subtracted from his vote total, causing him to lose the election. There is no mechanism for appeal. If this action is unconstitutional, and therefore is in violation of a fundamental principal of parliamentary law, namely the principle of following own specific rules, could I call a point of order violation at the next meeting and make our vote to accept the election commison's results null and void? Essentially, I am asking how I should approach fixing our vote to affirm election results that were tabulated based on election bylaws that are against the Constitution. I mean we basically passed a motion to affirmed an action that violated our students' Constitutional rights. There has to be a remedy for this, right? (FYI, I am in no way involved in the election and do not know any of the cafaiates. I just do not want to see this happening at my campus.) Best, Chris
  12. As Charter Organization for a Boy Scout Troop our sports club voted 2 years ago to issue 2 key cards to the senior troop leaders so they could access our clubhouse on meeting nights. Recently, with no reference to the previously approved motion, a motion was approved to pull the key cards since the troop leaders since they are not also club members and that a club member must now be present at every meeting. Because the recent motion did not specifically refer to the orginal motion was the motion and subsequent vote a breach and point of order? As I understand it, the original motion is still in effect as if the latest motion and vote never took place. Bob Kaufman bobkaufman@msn.com
  13. This may not be a question that can be answered in this forum, but here goes. At a County Commission meeting a motion was made and approved to pay a company money if they would move into the county and agree to hire XX number of employees within a few years. Time passes and a new County Commission is in place. Is there any obligation for the new Commission to honor the previously approved agreement with out a contract ?
  14. Guest


    When is "Rising to a Point of Order" action to be used? Can it be used if the Chairman has allowed the meeting to get out of hand and if not what can be used by a member to bring meeting back to an orderly process? What about a Council Member?
  15. If the presiding officer skips over a particular order of business or item of agenda, would it be OK to raise attention to that error by raising a point of order or should a member always use "call for the orders of the day"?
  16. In our organization our constitution states that: the duties of all officers shall be according to Robert's rules of Order, current Edition. I read in RONR p. 470, ll 15-17 that “All points of order and appeals, whether sustained or lost, together with the reasons given by the chair for his or her ruling” should be included in the minutes. I raised a point of order on a matter two meeting ago and the minutes from that meeting have already been approved. However, there is no mentioned that a point of order was ever raised or what the chair’s ruling was! How should I proceed so that the minutes reflect that a point of order was raised? Shall I move under new business that the minutes from the previous meeting be amended so that the point of order is included in those minutes? But since it appears that this should have been included by the secretary to begin with, is there another mechanism that I can use so a 2/3 vote to amend something previously approved can be avoided?
  17. What steps can be taken if a Chairman is unwilling to rule on a point of order? We have asked that that the chairman give a ruling of well taken or not well taken and he will not. Without this ruling we cannot continue with Board business, correct? Any direction will be greatly appreciated.
  18. Our bylaws for PTO state "These bylaws may be amended at any regular or special meeting, providing that previous notice was given in writing at the prior meeting and then sent to all members of the organization by the secretary. Amendments will be approved by a two-thirds vote of those present, assuming a quorum." Written notice was sent to the members prior to the monthly regular meeting in February stating the proposed changes(2/5/14). The meeting was postponed due to weather and held 2/12. The proposed changes were read and it was stated they had previously been sent in writing and posted for the members in public. No motion was made that they were read. At the regular March meeting a member contested that these could not be voted on because according to Robert's rules there was no motion to accept them as read. However, they were not up for a vote at that meeting. He called a point of order when a member made a motion to accept them as read now. The question is, does there have to be a motion to accept them as read when written notice was provided? Shouldn't the motion occur when they are up for vote. Meaning at the next regular meeting someone make a motion, a second, then they are debated, and finally the chair states the question. That is the only time a motion is required, correct?
  19. Guest

    illegal vote validity

    I understand that a voting body can usurp their by-laws if they vote to do so. But if the body does not vote to do so, and the chair allows an illegal vote to be taken and doesn't allow for points of order, then my question has several paths: Is the vote valid and/or binding or is it void? If the vote (highly contested) is allowed to stand - are there legal repercussions?
  20. There were two motions made at a meeting last month. Motion 1: Moved that Section B be deleted from the proposed policy: "Children using X must be 14 years of age or under." This motion was defeated. Then the following motion was proposed, and it passed: Motion 2: Moved that Section B be amended to read, "Children using X should be 14 years of age or under." A member is now suggesting that the second motion is null and void, since it effectively counteracts the point of the proposed policy (i.e. keeping big people from using X), and the deletion of that policy was already defeated at that meeting. Is this a breach, and if so, was it necessary to raise a Point of Order at the time?
  21. How does one assembly (a special meeting of the membership) raise a point of order about a continuing breach of the Rules by another (the board)? The breach in question is clear, leaving no room for interpretation, and satisfies the other requirements in RONR. The Board has been notified informally, but to no avail.
  22. Our committee has been meeting even though it has fewer members than the minimum required by the bylaws. It is not a question of a quorum; a sufficient number of members were simply not appointed "promptly" after the Annual General Meeting (held three months ago) as required by the bylaws. As no one is disputing the meaning of "prompt" it is not a question of interpretation. Should the chair raise the point herself, declare the meeting and/or any previous actions invalid and simply report the issue to the parent body (i.e. the Board) whose responsibility it is to make the appointments?
  23. Point of order is raised in contentious debate over a motion - does the point of order get included in the minutes?
  24. Guest

    Point of Order

    I need help! What if someone keeps saying "Point of Order" about things that are not parliamentary in nature? --- ex: she thinks something should have been included in a handout, etc. As presiding officer do I still need to rule on this? if I say the point is not well taken, and explain she needs to state which parilamentary rule someone has broken), she says "oh, it's a rule all right -- it's in there someplace", and then wants to appeal the decision. Do I really need to take an appeal vote on something that is obviously not even a point of order (and waste everyone's time)? This member is very loud, agressive and abrasive, and members are rolling their eyes. She says she knows her rights and her Robert's Rules (ah....a little knowledge....) Many of our members are older and meek, and she has steam-rolled over them for years. Now I've joined, and she resents my leadership. Many of our older members do not even understand "point of order" ....I don't think they could even follow what is involved in an "appeal" (a majority vote in the "negative" is beyond some of their comprehension). So please --- how do I handle this? give me some wording to use with her. Or if I am in the wrong, plese explain why.
  25. I have two questions: Does the parliamentaria of a society have the authority to respond to a point of order without being recognized by the Chair? Is there any recourse when in response to a point of order, the parliamentarian responds with inaccurate and incorrect information? Thank you
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