Anion Posted February 6, 2011 at 07:53 PM Report Share Posted February 6, 2011 at 07:53 PM In a church I visit, by bylaw the minister is the president of the church board and he presides both theboard and the assembly meetings. During one of the assembly meetings the minister presents the recommendation of the board as to how to proceed to elect next year church board officers.The minister tells the church board members they do not have the right to speak during deliberations of the assembly because they already had the opportunity to speak during the church board meeting and their duty is to support the decision taken by the boards majority. I hold the opposite, that the church board members have the right to speak during assembly deliberations.Question#1: If a board member disagrees with a Church Board's recommendation, or if he disagrees with something during the deliberation of the issue by the assembly, does he have the right to speak?I believe the board's member has the right to speak. The basis for my opinion is RONR 10th edition page 510 at botom of page, the paragraph under the subheading "FORMAL EXPRESSION OF MINORITY VIEW ("MINORITY REPORT")" under subject #51 "REPORTS OF BOARDS AND COMMITTEES":"But in debate on any written or oral report in the assembly, any member of the reporting committee who does not concur has the same right as any other member of the assembly to speak individually in opposition. No one can make allusion in the assembly to what has occurred during the deliberations of the committee, however, unless it is by report of the committee or by unanimous consent."I am not an expert on Robert Rules, nor deal with them frequently, so I would like opinions by others in this matter. Am I right? Are there any other statements supporting this "principle"? Are there any other things I need to consider before insisting that the board member has the right to speak? If I am wrong, let me know too. Thanks.Question #2: What is the shortest way to quote the above paragraph of Robert Rules? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hmtcastle Posted February 6, 2011 at 07:59 PM Report Share Posted February 6, 2011 at 07:59 PM Question#1: If a board member disagrees with a Church Board's recommendation, or if he disagrees with something during the deliberation of the issue by the assembly, does he have the right to speak?Yes. Your minister is mistaken. All members have the right to speak (at the appropriate time) whether they also happen to be a member of another body (e.g. the board) or not. Nor is a board member obligated to support the decision of the board when the question comes before the general membership.Question #2: What is the shortest way to quote the above paragraph of Robert Rules?There's no need to shorten it. Just ask your minister show you the rule that supports his statement. He won't find it in RONR. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David A Foulkes Posted February 6, 2011 at 08:02 PM Report Share Posted February 6, 2011 at 08:02 PM And keep in mind that at a meeting of the "assembly" (or general membership, as I take it) the Board is not there. The Board members may be members of the assembly, and as such are at those meetings as members of the assembly, not the Board, with full membership rights including debate. As far as meetings go, the Board only exists at meetings of the Board. At meetings of the assembly, everyone is just a member, with no special status.Your rules may vary, so do check them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anion Posted February 6, 2011 at 08:25 PM Author Report Share Posted February 6, 2011 at 08:25 PM Yes. Your minister is mistaken. All members have the right to speak (at the appropriate time) whether they also happen to be a member of another body (e.g. the board) or not. Nor is a board member obligated to support the decision of the board when the question comes before the general membership.There's no need to shorten it. Just ask your minister show you the rule that supports his statement. He won't find it in RONR.Thanks for such a direct answer.If you don't mind, just like I can quote a bible paragraph as John 3:16, I imagine there is a way to quote RONR. May be like "RONR article 51.so and so", or may be "RONR page 510 lines 32-36". Is there such a thing? If so, How do I quote it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hmtcastle Posted February 6, 2011 at 08:40 PM Report Share Posted February 6, 2011 at 08:40 PM Is there such a thing? If so, How do I quote it?You'll find the recommended format for citations opposite the title page. It's essentially page and line numbers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh Martin Posted February 6, 2011 at 09:09 PM Report Share Posted February 6, 2011 at 09:09 PM Question#1: If a board member disagrees with a Church Board's recommendation, or if he disagrees with something during the deliberation of the issue by the assembly, does he have the right to speak?Yes (and you have the perfect passage for it).Am I right?Yes. Are there any other statements supporting this "principle"?The right to speak in debate is a basic right of membership and is affirmed at several points in the text. To the best of my knowledge, the citation you have found is the only one which addresses this specific situation. For the general right, see RONR (10th ed.), p. 2, l. 1-3; p. 3, l. 8-12; p. 255, l. 22-28.Are there any other things I need to consider before insisting that the board member has the right to speak?Anything you will find in RONR on the subject will only strengthen your argument. I would certainly look at the p. 255 citation. If there is anything which would counter your argument it would have to be in the rules of your assembly.If you don't mind, just like I can quote a bible paragraph as John 3:16, I imagine there is a way to quote RONR. May be like "RONR article 51.so and so", or may be "RONR page 510 lines 32-36". Is there such a thing? If so, How do I quote it?Well, I think you mean "cite" not "quote." If you were to quote it you would use the actual language of the passage. At any rate, the proper way to cite the passage you have provided is RONR (10th ed.), p. 510, l. 32-35. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anion Posted February 6, 2011 at 11:54 PM Report Share Posted February 6, 2011 at 11:54 PM Yes, I meant cite. In spanish the word "cita" has both meanings, quote and cite, therein my mistake. Thanks to all who answered. Very useful comments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tctheatc Posted February 7, 2011 at 12:19 AM Report Share Posted February 7, 2011 at 12:19 AM Anion, are you a member of this church? You mention you visit. Do you know if the bylaws address this in any fashion? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anion Posted February 10, 2011 at 05:59 AM Author Report Share Posted February 10, 2011 at 05:59 AM Anion, are you a member of this church? You mention you visit. Do you know if the bylaws address this in any fashion?Yes, I am a member. No,the bylaws do not address many specific parliamentary rules. My understanding is RONR is acceptable as back up for that. But in reality it is rarely used (members are too "respectful" or submissive,I think.)The fact is, I love the church (my wife and I have many friends there). Yet, I feel ashamed of the minister's attitude.I do not want to embarrass my congregation. But I think I am witnessing an episode of authoritarianism. More frankly, spiritual abuse.I confronted the pastor for using procedures different than the ones in the bylaws. When some board members wanted to speak, he did not allow them to. I got upset, raised my voice and said they had the right to speak. The pastor said I was out of order and ordered an elder to get me out of the hall (sanctuary). The elder took me by the elbow and walked me out through the middle aisle of the church. But several church members stood and extended their arms and hands stopping us and telling the person who was grabbing me by the elbow, that he did not have the right to remove me from the sanctuary. And to me they said “you stay here, they have no right to be doing this to you”. Three months later the pastor somehow convinced the board to recommend to the whole church to discipline me for this confrontation. The church vote was split but the majority supported the pastor and I was disciplined for disorder!I think the pastor is the one who caused the disorder for not following the rules.I want to appeal to higher church authority so this judgment is removed. I am consulting with them now, as I do have many questions. But I think I need to be shure of my stand when RONR apply.Sorry I gave you too much info, out of topic may be.Anion Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hmtcastle Posted February 10, 2011 at 11:10 AM Report Share Posted February 10, 2011 at 11:10 AM Sorry I gave you too much info, out of topic may be.Part of the problem may stem from mixing the spiritual with the temporal; namely, holding your meetings in a "sanctuary" with your pastor as the presiding officer. If the meetings were held on "neutral ground" with one of the congregation as the presiding officer, you may notice a very dynamic at work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tctheatc Posted February 10, 2011 at 11:58 AM Report Share Posted February 10, 2011 at 11:58 AM That's a good point, H.Wm. I'm familiar with churches who hold such meetings in the sanctuary hoping for more, ahem, respectful proceedings. Doesn't always work.As a minister, I'm having a hard time wrapping my mind around this pastor's mindset, but I dare say he's operating under a different set of rules than RONR. If it's not something contained in the bylaws, he is apparently very much out in left field. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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