potemm Posted July 22, 2011 at 09:29 PM Report Share Posted July 22, 2011 at 09:29 PM We are a not for profit private yacht club. We have found it necessary to add to out existing bylaws and have sent a letter to our members to that effect. The letter gives the members the time and place of the meeting along with the proposed bylaw changes. We also allow for absentee ballots. The question is; If during discussion on the new bylaws they are ammended from the original form sent out. Will that effect the validity of the absentee ballot and if so how can that be remedied?Thanl you,Richard M. borys Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Harrison Posted July 22, 2011 at 09:37 PM Report Share Posted July 22, 2011 at 09:37 PM RONR p. 409 says:An organization should never adopt a bylaw permitting a question to be decided by a voting procedure in which the votes of persons who attend a meeting are counted together with ballots mailed in by absentees. The votes of those present could be affected by debate, by amendments, and perhaps by the need for repeated balloting, while those absent would be unable to adjust their votes to reflect these factors. Consequently, the absentee ballots would in most cases be on a somewhat different question than that on which those present were voting, leading to confusion, unfairness, and inaccuracy in determining the result.Hopefully the bylaws already specifically provide for using absentee voting otherwise you can't use it (RONR pp. 408-409). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Wynn Posted July 22, 2011 at 09:49 PM Report Share Posted July 22, 2011 at 09:49 PM We are a not for profit private yacht club. We have found it necessary to add to out existing bylaws and have sent a letter to our members to that effect. The letter gives the members the time and place of the meeting along with the proposed bylaw changes. We also allow for absentee ballots. The question is; If during discussion on the new bylaws they are ammended from the original form sent out. Will that effect the validity of the absentee ballot and if so how can that be remedied?Thanl you,Richard M. borysAbsentee votes should not be mixed with votes from those attending a meeting.See RONR(10th ed.), p. 409, l. 4-17, for a warning against such a situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Nancy N. Posted July 23, 2011 at 05:36 AM Report Share Posted July 23, 2011 at 05:36 AM (snip)Robert's Rules does not say how that can be remedied, because of what Tim and Chris said. P. 295, lines 12 - 18, might reflect a comparable situation.I think that common sense would say that if the situation that exists -- after the proposal is amended -- still allows the absentee ballots to make sense, then they should be counted, without blinking. On the other hand, if the change makes the absentee ballots absurd -- irrelevant to the question being voted on -- then they are just the same as blank slips of paper. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Hunt Posted July 23, 2011 at 07:14 AM Report Share Posted July 23, 2011 at 07:14 AM You might be able to adopt provisos to your bylaw amendments allowing the absentee ballots to remain valid for the remainder of the meeting at which the amendments are adopted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David A Foulkes Posted July 23, 2011 at 11:00 AM Report Share Posted July 23, 2011 at 11:00 AM I think that common sense would say that if the situation that exists -- after the proposal is amended -- still allows the absentee ballots to make sense, then they should be counted, without blinking. On the other hand, if the change makes the absentee ballots absurd -- irrelevant to the question being voted on -- then they are just the same as blank slips of paper.I think this is as potentially troublesome, equally if not more so, as is just counting the absentee ballots regardless. Common sense? Experience has led me to believe it is anything but common. And who gets to apply their brand of it to the situation and say "yes, let's count the absentee ballots", or "No, they are no longer valid and those members' votes count less than nothing"? The Chair? Or should a vote be taken on that as well, but of course without the absentees chiming in? And at what point in the amendment process does the "blink" occur and those ballots transmogrify into so many blank slips of paper? I think this is a slippery slope at which even Sisyphus would shake his head. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Nancy N. Posted July 23, 2011 at 12:05 PM Report Share Posted July 23, 2011 at 12:05 PM (snip)Clearly, it is for the assembly to decide what to do with questionable ballots (RONR, 10th Ed, p. 402, lines 16 - 21).Okay, let's try a real-world example. We propose to paint the fire truck beige; that's what the absentee ballots are voting on. It is proposed to amend the motion, to paint the truck red instead of beige, because "beige" sounds French. A motion to substitute is offered, to buy a fleet of crocodiles instead. (The proposed substitution is ruled obviously germane, as the purport of the main motion is to get us over to the fire expeditiously.) It is then proposed to paint the crocodiles red, since, obviously, this is a volunteer fire-fighting company, and we don't want to make a laughingstock of ourselves.So, how do we apply the absentee ballots that vote to paint a truck red? Do we stop what we're doing and phone up David Foulkes, whose name probably rhymes with something, because he knows who Sisyphus is, and ask him to adjudicate?(Well, that French guy would shake his head cause he's a sisy.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David A Foulkes Posted July 23, 2011 at 12:26 PM Report Share Posted July 23, 2011 at 12:26 PM Okay, let's try a real-world example. What I like about you: You begin with this benign collection of words, and then dive head first into the shallow end while Paco the pool boy, who has just finished draining it for the season, turns away to watch the lifeguard collect his things to leave. Red crocs, indeed. Sure, I'll take the call, and we'll deal with it then. (rhymes with Snoulkes)How about this: At the Yacht Club, notice has been given to amend the bylaws to extend the length limits on boats allowed to tie up to the dock from 25' to 30'. Dr. Schmenkman, who has just traded in his 24' Bayliner for a 26' Sea Ray, sends in his "aye aye." During debate, new member Atty Fosdick pulls off a coupe and gets the motion amended to 35', having just signed a purchase agreement for a 34'11" Cavileer (sleeps 12). Schmenkman hates Fosdisk, and led the campaign to deny his membership, unsuccessfully of course, and would go to any length (that is, up to 34'10") to deny him dock rights.Have we blinked yet?Additionally:Clearly, it is for the assembly to decide what to do with questionable ballots (RONR, 10th Ed, p. 402, lines 16 - 21).This would only happen after the absentee ballots have been allowed to be counted, which we know is a no no, you know? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rev Ed Posted July 24, 2011 at 01:54 AM Report Share Posted July 24, 2011 at 01:54 AM It would depend on how the By-law is worded. For some organizations, a proxy must indicate how the person would have voted if he/she attended. Thus if the person marks off "yes" then it is a "yes" vote regardless of whether or not there was an amendment. Other organizations allow the proxyholder to vote as he/she would see fit - which means that the person can vote differently.I would assume that the "abesntee ballot" come with two options - "yes" or "no". If so, unless the absentee ballot states otherwise, it would still be the same vote even if there was an amendment. This is a major risk of allowing for absentee ballots or proxies - if there is an amendment, then the person might have voted differently. Unfortunately, because of the fact that the member is not present he/she can indicate the change when voting starts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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