Move to Table

[Guest Richard]

Can a Move To Table interrupt a Motion in progress, per RONR Current Edition?

Does it require a second and is debate allowable?

Thanks!

Richard in VA

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[jstackpo]

if by "interrupt a Motion in progress" you mean someone, in turn, gets proper recognition from the chair, and moves to table, then "yes" is the answer. Not a true interruption as might be OK with a point of order.

Second required, no debate.

[Guest Richard]

I may not get recognition from the Chair. So maybe I should "move to table until such time" before the other member has the chance to motion.

Does a Table require a majority? or 2/3rds?

Thanks!

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[jstackpo]

If the chair won't recognize you (why not?), then your option is to keep quiet.

"table until such time" is NOT the standard motion to "Lay on the Table" -- see RONR, p. 201 -- but is a poor way to phrase "move to postpone definitely -- see p. 172 -- an entirely different motion.

[Chris Harrison]

I may not get recognition from the Chair.

Why wouldn't you?

So maybe I should "move to table until such time" before the other member has the chance to motion.

Not quite sure what you mean by that but it sounds like an improper use of the motion of Lay On The Table. Can you please clarify what you mean.

Does a Table require a majority? or 2/3rds?

Majority vote.

[Guest Richard]

Let me explain...

Tonight there will be a heated discussion before Town Council, in which I serve. The public is advised that there will be a motion to kill a project that the people want dearly. Two months ago the Council, thru its motion that carried 7-0, set forth a "Management Team" to study the project and report back to the Council its best recommendation on how to proceed with the project.

One member of council has been able to twist the arms of 2 other, possibly 3 other members of Council into abandoning the project all together, without hearing a report back from the Management Team.

It will be a packed house of constituents who want the project to proceed.

I want to offer a motion for Council take no action on this project until such time as the Town Manager has the opportunity to gather the Management Team and have them report their status and current findings before the Full Council, and to make its best recommendation to the Council on how to proceed.

I hope it would be a reasonable motion to make that most members of Council will support. I'm just concerned that the other member of Council will offer his motion to kill as soon as the meeting is called to order, and without hearing ANY input from the people. Therefore, I may need to interrupt his motion, if I can.

Thanks again and I hope this helps.

[Chris Harrison]

<snip>

It sounds like this "Management Team" is serving as a committee of the Council. In that case RONR p. 300 says "So long as a question is in the hands of a committee, the assembly cannot consider another motion involving practically the same question." So until the committee is discharged (RONR pp. 299-304) or it makes its report it is hands off for the council (including you and any other member). If the member makes that motion you should raise a Point of Order that the motion is not in order giving the cite I supplied.

In case someone tries to claim that this Management Team is not a committee you can cited RONR pp. 471-472 which says, "A committee, as understood in parliamentary law, is a body of one or more persons, elected or appointed by (or by direction of) an assembly or society, to consider, investigate, or take action on certain matters or subjects, or to do all of these things."

[jstackpo]

Sounds like a fun meeting coming up. Does the Town have a qualified professional parliamentarian to help you and the chair do things correctly? And avoid lawsuits in the future.

For example a "motion to take no action" is improper. No matter whether the final vote is "Yes" or "No" on your motion, the result is the same - no action. This is what is called a dilatory motion.

It may also be improper for the council member to move to terminate the project - the matter, right now, seems to be in the hands of your "Management Team" committee. So if "terminate" is moved, raise a point of order. That can properly interrupt things. See RONR p. 107 for possible grounds for why it might be "out of order". Whether the motion is out of order depends on the details of what has been done in the past which we can't deal with here.

And, of course, if you have the votes - or can be convincing in debate - just vote the "terminate" motion down.

Or move to refer the "terminate" motion to that same "Management Committee".

"Lay on the table" would probably be improper, too. But "postpone indefinitely" would be OK.

There are lots of parliamentary options available, if you know the rules...

Good luck!

[Guest Richard]

Oh, Okay?

But let me further explain...

Last week Council held a Special Called Meeting for other business as stated in the call. Before that meeting adjourned, the other Council Member offer the following motion... as per the minutes of the meeting.

"Councilman (so-and-so) made a motion that the Council abandon its goals for turning the Armory into a Library and/or Continuing Education Center or Museum and reoffer this property to (so-and-so) or other developers. Councilman (so-and-so) also proposed that all proceeds from the utilities from the apartments that may be put in the building be saved in a special account for a period of (10) years to go towards the building or procurement of a suitable public building for the community."

The motion carried by a single tie-breaking vote.

BUT, the Town Attorney ruled the motion Null and Void because it was not listed on the Call of the meeting. Per Town Code, Council can take NO action on matters NOT listed in the Call for any Special Meeting.

Therefore, tonight during our regular monthly meeting, I fully expect the other Council member to renew his motion. There will be a packed house of irate citizens... who wish for the building to become a community center. I would like the people to have opportunity to speek before I make a motion to postpone. But if I wait too long, I may wind up having to interrupt the other members motion to Abandon.

Any advice is GREATLY appreciated. I do not have a copy of RONR 10th Edition.

THANKS again!

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turning

[Chris Harrison]

<snip>

First I would go to your local library or friendly neighborhood bookstore to get a copy of RONR 10th Edition because you are going to need it. Next, all the suggestions that JD Stackpole and I made are still valid options and I would suggest that you read the pages of all the motions that we mentioned in our postings.

[jstackpo]

Your town attorney got it right. Sounds like the chair fell down on the job - he (she) should have ruled the motion out of order when it was made in the Special Meeting.

Was there a notice of the "abandon its goals" motion in the call for tonight's regular meeting? If not, it will require a 2/3 vote to carry since it is clearly a motion to rescind some previously adopted motion (the motion setting those goals). Can the other side muster 2/3? Or can they muster a majority of the entire membership (not just those who choose to vote) of the town council? Either vote threshold will carry the motion.

See RONR -- maybe it's time for a quick trip to your local library or bookstore! -- p. 293 ff. for details.

[tctheatc]

Richard: you seem unduly concerned with having to "interrupt" someone else's motion. This is unwarranted.

From what you describe, there may be a motion made to "kill" the project in some way. Assuming there would be a normal process of debate on such motion (there would, wouldn't there be???), when it's your turn to speak during the debate on the motion to kill the project, you move to Postpone to a Certain Time, whether that time is when the management team reports back, or a particular calendar debate, in order to allow for more information to be gathered. Such a motion (as Chris and JD have explained above) is entirely in order when you're discussing another main motion. See RONRIB p53, which you might find simpler than the citations already given. But stop worrying about having to "interrupt". As people here are saying, there's a way to do it.

[Guest Richard]

As I figured, the Councilman renewed his motion during Monday nights Regular Council Meeting. It was a packed house and he read his motion as soon as the Mayor opened the meeting.

He moved that the Council abandon its goals for turning the Armory into a Library and/or Continuing Education Center or Museum and reoffer this property to So-and-So or other developers. Councilman So-and-So also proposed that all proceeds from the utilities from the apartments that may be put in the building be saved in a special account for a period of (10) years to go towards the building or procurement of a suitable public building for the community. The motion was received a second.

After hearing a second to the motion, the Mayor opened the floor for public comment. Following approx. 30 minutes of having our ears filled, it came time for comment/debate by council. I was unsure where several council members stood so I held tight until the roll-call, I'm 3rd from the top.

When my turn came to vote, I offered the following substitute motion:

"I move that Council Postpone Indefinitely the Main Motion until such time as the Town Manager has the opportunity to assemble and bring before the Full Council the Armory Management Team with an update status summary report of the progress made up to that time, and for the Full Council to hear from the Management Team and receive and consider any recommendation it may offer as it regards the future use of the Harris Memorial Armory as a Distant Learning & Community Center, and/or other public reuse." The motion received a second and was voted down 4-3.

The roll-call vote continued so I raised to a Point of Order:

Then I said, in so many words, that the Armory Management Team is a committee of the Council. That this question is before the committee and is hands-off to the Council until the Committee reports back to the Council. (in so many words)

I stated, "So long as a question is in the hands of a committee, the assembly cannot consider another motion involving practically the same question." Referencing RONR p.300

Then I stated, "A committee, as understood in parliamentary law, is a body of one or more persons, elected or appointed by (or by direction of) an assembly or society, to consider, investigate, or take action on certain matters or subjects, or to do all of these things." Referencing RONR pp. 471-472

The town Attorney did NOT attend the meeting, following some discussion the Mayor proceeded with the roll-call and the motion carried 4-3 to abandon.

The Mayor stated he would refer my Point of Order to the Town's Attorney for legal opinion. The Attorney is on vacation and so far, everything is in limbo. But I am hearing all indicators are suggesting the Point of Order I raised is likely quite valid.

The Management Team, btw, includes a Vice-President of one collage, a Dean of another, our County Schools Superintendent, County Planner, Employment Commission Workforce Supervisor, Chamber of Commerce Chairwoman... and several other people of local influence.

I want to THANK ALL for your help with this! I'll get back with what the Attorney says...

Richard in VA

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[Dan Honemann]

When my turn came to vote, I offered the following substitute motion:

This was totally improper.

The roll-call vote continued so I raised to a Point of Order

This was also totally improper if the vote was still continuing.

[Josh Martin]

When my turn came to vote, I offered the following substitute motion:

"I move that Council Postpone Indefinitely the Main Motion until such time as the Town Manager has the opportunity to assemble and bring before the Full Council the Armory Management Team with an update status summary report of the progress made up to that time, and for the Full Council to hear from the Management Team and receive and consider any recommendation it may offer as it regards the future use of the Harris Memorial Armory as a Distant Learning & Community Center, and/or other public reuse."

This motion was improper for several reasons. Firstly, and most importantly, nothing may interrupt the taking of a vote. Additionally, it is not a proper motion to substitute, as the purpose of that motion would be to replace the main motion with an alternative main motion, not with a subsidiary motion to Postpone Indefinitely. It is also not a proper motion Postpone Indefinitely, as the motion to Postpone Indefinitely may not be qualified. The purpose of the motion to Postpone Indefinitely is to kill a motion for the duration of the current session without taking a direct vote on it.

You could have made a proper motion prior to the vote being taken, although personally, I would have just stuck with your Point of Order.

The roll-call vote continued so I raised to a Point of Order:

This was improper. Nothing may interrupt the taking of a vote. You could have raised a Point of Order either before or after the vote was taken (but you have a pretty narrow window after the vote is taken).

Neither of your violations matter at this point, but be sure to keep these rules in mind for the future.

[Guest Richard]

MY MISTAKE:

I entered my substitute motion following the second to the main motion. After the substitute motion was voted down, I raised the Point of Order prior to the first vote on the main motion.

The Mayor tells me I raised the Point of Order BEFORE he proceeded with the votes on the main motion. I suppose after 2 hours of frustration, I tend to remember things not as they took place... tapes will be listened to today.

So the Point of Order can be raise AFTER the votes are taken?

How wide is this window of opportunity?

Thanks again for any help!

Richard in VA.

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[jstackpo]

"So the Point of Order can be raise AFTER the votes are taken?"

Yes... if the point relates to the conduct of the vote - p. 243-244

"Window"? Very short, again see p.244.

[tctheatc]

But even before voting takes place, during debate, you could've made a motion to Postpone to a Certain Time, rather than Indefinitely.

[Josh Martin]

I entered my substitute motion following the second to the main motion. After the substitute motion was voted down, I raised the Point of Order prior to the first vote on the main motion.

Well, that makes your mangled motion less improper. At least you moved it at the right time. It is still neither a proper motion to Amend by Substitution or to Postpone Indefinitely.

So the Point of Order can be raise AFTER the votes are taken?

Sometimes. In this case, yes.

How wide is this window of opportunity?

In most cases (including this one), not very. The window of opportunity is until the chair states the question on the next item of business.

[Guest Richard]

I wished I had known that I could have raised the Point of Order after all the votes were taken. To be truthful, I new it was going to go 4-3 or 3-4... just didn't know for sure which. I knew it was going to be close.

Thanks for all the help!

But now I have a new dilemma:

The Town Attorney has returned from vacation and has offered his opinion to the Mayor that the "Management Team" is not a committee to the Council, therefore my Point of Order is invalid. The Attorney's opinion is that the rule only applies tocommittees that are "Standing Committees" of the Council, which are made up of 3 members of Council.

The "Management Team" was appointed by the Full Council several months ago as recomended by the Town Manager, there was a motion that passed 7-0 to appoint the citizen group as the Management Team, to task them to study and report back to the Council their recommendation as to how to proceed, if any at all, with the project.

Isn't the Management Team in essence a committee of the Council, as according to RONR?

Reference post #13 above by Richard (me) as well as post #7 by Chris.

THANKS again!

Richard in VA.

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[Chris Harrison]

Isn't the Management Team in essence a committee of the Council, as according to RONR?

Yes, and I have no idea where the Town Attorney came up with that idea. But maybe the Council's bylaws defines a committee more stringently than RONR does.

[Guest Richard]

I see nothing in the Town code about committees, except for the definition and titles for the "standing committees" which are selected (appointed) by the Mayor and served by 3 members of Council.

Thanks again Chris... may the spiders unite!

Richard in VA

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[Guest Richard]

One last bit of help?

Could someone (maybe Chris) tell me what chapter and section and/or sub-section to find the below excerpts from RONR, 10th Edition.

(as provided by Chris in above post #7)

RONR p. 300: "So long as a question is in the hands of a committee, the assembly cannot consider another motion involving practically the same question."

RONR pp. 471-472: "A committee, as understood in parliamentary law, is a body of one or more persons, elected or appointed by (or by direction of) an assembly or society, to consider, investigate, or take action on certain matters or subjects, or to do all of these things."

RONR pp. 299-304: The discharging of a Council Committee.

Our Town Attorney has called saying he can't find these in his on-line version of RONR, he doesn't see reference to page numbers.

THANKS again for the help!

Richard in VA.

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[jstackpo]

You attorney is looking at a NINETY-SIX YEAR OLD version of Roberts - the 1915 edition.

Tell him/her to get with it and get a copy of RONR/10th (2000 edition) or RONR/11 - out in September - and start to give proper parliamentary advice.

Or better, hire a professional parliamentarian...

If you anticipate that you might

have continuing parliamentary

difficulties or problems you

might want to get in touch with

a real live professional

parliamentarian in your area

(not virtual ones like us)

for consultations.

Contact either (or both) the ...

National Association of Parliamentarians

213 South Main St.

Independence, MO 64050-3850

Phone: 888-627-2929

Fax: 816-833-3893;

e-mail: hq@NAP2.org

<<www.parliamentarians.org>>

or

American Institute of Parliamentarians

550M Ritchie Highway #271

Severna Park, MD 21146

Phone: 888-664-0428

Fax: 410-544-4640

e-mail: aip@aipparl.org

<<www.aipparl.org>>

for a reference or information.

[Guest Richard]

Thank you JDStackpole, I assumed I would hear something similar to this sooner or later.

The Town Attorney and/or Mayor will be contacting the Parliamentarian at the states Municipal Clerks Association this week to resolve.

And I'll be ordering a RONR 10th Edition (or 11th) soon.

Thanks again!

Richard in Va.

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