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Ecclesiastical Matters


Mr.SHWard@Gmail.com

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My church board hired a minister. Sometime later, and as we have grown more and more dissatisfied with her, she (the minister) has learned, and is applying more and more, that she has authority in "ecclesiastical matters", thereby thwarting the efforts of the church board to govern the church.

There is a growing discussion amongst various members of the church to change the bylaws, removing (or at least modifying) the language of the bylaws that currently "seem" to give (though very vaguely) authority of ecclesiastical matters to the minister.

According to our bylaws, changes to the bylaws can only be made by a quorum of the church members at the annual meeting or a special meeting.

The "sticky wicket" here is that: the definition of the word ECCLESIASTICAL is being used and misused to suite whomever is using the term at the time. Some say, as do I, that the intended meaning applies to "Doctrine and Teachings as they apply to the Messages given each Sunday by said minister" while others maintain that it relates to ALL things related to church business, period. This would seem to conflict with the fact that the church board can fire the minister, according to the bylaws.

This issue is further complicated by the fact that said minister has made a request to change some of the wording in the bylaws, removing various duties and responsibilities of the minister, yet she maintains that she is to have "exclusive rights for ecclesiastical matters."

I feel that, since the minister has requested to be relieved of a number of the obligations pertaining to ecclesiastical matters (using her definition), the minister has opened the door for the members of the church to completely re-word this area of the bylaws. And if the minister's request is to be honored, then she cannot have it BOTH ways. Either the term "ecclesiastical matters" is clearly defined as: all things pertaining to the general order of the Sunday and weekday services like: songs chosen, music, content of the Sunday message, etc. Alternately, the term of "ecclesiastical matters" could be completely replaced with verbiage clearly defining the minister's new responsibilities; or nothing is done at all in changing the bylaws, and the minister's requested changes are tabled.

Am I off base, or am I correct in my understanding? Also, what is your recommendation on how to move forward with this?

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Absent some rule superior to the bylaws you all can amend them to say what you all want them to say. If you all want to define what constitutes "ecclesiastical matters" you can do so (provided there are enough votes to do so). If you all want to do away with the term "ecclesiastical matters" altogether and specifically spell out the duties of the minister you can do that too (provided you have the votes to do so). If you all want to keep things as they are now then just defeat any amendments and the status qua will be maintained.

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Absent some rule superior to the bylaws you all can amend them to say what you all want them to say. If you all want to define what constitutes "ecclesiastical matters" you can do so (provided there are enough votes to do so). If you all want to do away with the term "ecclesiastical matters" altogether and specifically spell out the duties of the minister you can do that too (provided you have the votes to do so). If you all want to keep things as they are now then just defeat any amendments and the status qua will be maintained.

Thank you Chris H.

I have reviewed the bylaws and understand them. The only "superior" anything is that the minister, and others, are holding to their favored "definition" of what is meant by the minister having exclusive rights for ecclesiastical matters. Meaning, if the minister doesn't like something, she can simply over rule and do what she wants, period.

Again, thank you for your help...

One last thing. Is the Robert's Rules of Order Newly Revised available in PDF or as an E-book?

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One last thing. Is the Robert's Rules of Order Newly Revised available in PDF or as an E-book?

I know that RONR/10 is not available through Amazon's Kindle Store (though In Brief is) but I can't speak for B&N's nook or any other e-book readers. I hope that when RONR/11 comes out next month that it will be available as an e-book soon afterward.

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:rolleyes: Is your church part of a denomination, association, confederation or anything like that? if so, you might check with some other congregations of a similar nature for ideas and interpretations. Were the bylaws drafted from some example or template where the "ecclesiastical" stuff came from?

If it helps your side of this argument/debate, check out the original New Testament Greek (I think "ecclesia" is a Greek word). Or, ignore it if it does not. Making arguments about ancient, dead languages (Latin, Ancielt Greek, etc.) gives certain credibility to an argument. Of course, it could very wekk be that she is a scholar of New Testament Greek and then you change to Latin, or something she is not an expert in.

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