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Increase assessments(dues)


Guest Diana Watt

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We have a differnce in opinion on what our Bylaw states. The President states it's 2/3 of votes recieved. We disagree

This is a Not for Profit Homeowners Association.

The By laws state:

"The upwards limit on assessments by the Board

may not be changed by the Board, but may be raised by a two-thirds (2/3) vote of all the Association

members; said vote to be conducted by mailing ballots to all registered members. The ballots should be

voted on by each member and returned and opened and tabulated at an annual meeting or special

meeting called for such purpose. Any ballot not returned shall be recorded and entered as a non-vote"

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I'd like to know how you record a nonvote. :)

Like this if there are a total of say 1,000 members:

Voting yes 667

voting No 233

Not voting 100

and the fact that they're keeping track of the non voters says to me that not voting effects the outcome of the vote just as much as voting does. After all it does say "a two-thirds (2/3) vote of all the Association

members."

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Like this if there are a total of say 1,000 members:

Voting yes 667

voting No 233

Not voting 100

and the fact that they're keeping track of the non voters says to me that not voting effects the outcome of the vote just as much as voting does. After all it does say "a two-thirds (2/3) vote of all the Association

members."

The only thing that should tell you the effect of an abstention is the voting requirement, not the requirement to record it.

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But the voting requirement is what they're trying to figure out, and Alan has pointed up a significant clue as to what they had in mind.

(Am I playing Speaker-to-Alan overnight??)

This seems to coincide with this thread, wherein the language used to describe the voting threshold was (to some here) questionable. If these bylaws said "two-thirds vote of the entire membership" there would be no question what was meant, as for how RONR would view it. Since it deviates from that RONR-endorsed language (with "of all the Association members"), it may be construed as saying the right to raise the upper limit of assessments is reserved for the membership (not the Board) as the voting body. Whether it means all the members at a meeting present and voting, or of the enter association membership, is something the society will need to determine. The fact that they are (perhaps erroneously) tracking abstentions may be irrelevant in this regard.

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But the voting requirement is what they're trying to figure out, and Alan has pointed up a significant clue as to what they had in mind.

(Am I playing Speaker-to-Alan overnight??)

IFFFFFF the vote requirement is a vote of two thirds of the entire membership (which RONR discourages), and there are 1,000 members, and 667 vote in the affirmative with 233 opposed... there's no parliamentary significance in recording the abstentions. I wonder if Alan would recommend this practice.

Instead of a requirement that abstentions be recorded, a better clue would have been to say that abstentions have the same effect as a negative vote. Best of all would have been to just state the requirement clearly, since "what they had in mind" yields to what they actually put in the bylaws. ;)

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Ummmmmm...................... no? I mean, yes. No, no, wait ---- what I meant was "a vote of two-thirds of the entire membership." Or..... oh, gnats. I hate when you use smiley faces. :wacko:

You'll notice that "majority vote" and "two-thirds vote" have a specific meaning in parliamentary law and neither shows up in the following requirements:

A vote of a majority of the entire membership

A vote of two thirds of the entire membership

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You'll notice that "majority vote" and "two-thirds vote" have a specific meaning in parliamentary law and neither shows up in the following requirements:

A vote of a majority of the entire membership

A vote of two thirds of the entire membership

Sure they do - p. 402-403

What doesn't show up is the phrase from the original posting:

"a two-thirds (2/3) vote of all the Association members"

"two-thirds vote" has a clearly defined meaning, per RONR, but the qualification "of all..." messes it up.

The ambiguity arises because who else but "all the ... members" are entitled to vote? Thus the phrase could be viewed as completely redundant and ignorable, leaving you with just "two-thirds vote".

Or is the phrase meant to change the meaning of "two-thirds vote" to the RONR phrase "a vote of two-thirds of the ... membership"? Is that a stretch? It sure does violence to the syntax. What does "two-thirds" modify?

That is for Guest_Watt's association to figure out for itself, and then amend to bylaws appropriately.

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What doesn't show up is the phrase from the original posting:

"a two-thirds (2/3) vote of all the Association members"

"two-thirds vote" has a clearly defined meaning, per RONR, but the qualification "of all..." messes it up.

It manages to give the appearance of accuracy while remaining ambiguous, supporting my rule of thumb that whenever bylaws repeat a number in both words and numerals, odds are there are problems elsewhere.

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Sure they do - p. 402-403

What doesn't show up is the phrase from the original posting:

"a two-thirds (2/3) vote of all the Association members"

"two-thirds vote" has a clearly defined meaning, per RONR, but the qualification "of all..." messes it up.

The ambiguity arises because who else but "all the ... members" are entitled to vote? Thus the phrase could be viewed as completely redundant and ignorable, leaving you with just "two-thirds vote".

Or is the phrase meant to change the meaning of "two-thirds vote" to the RONR phrase "a vote of two-thirds of the ... membership"? Is that a stretch? It sure does violence to the syntax. What does "two-thirds" modify?

That is for Guest_Watt's association to figure out for itself, and then amend to bylaws appropriately.

John,

My post was attempting to say that RONR skillfully avoids using the term "majority vote" in the term "a vote of a majority of the entire membership." The same is true of the two-thirds vote version. It's an important technique to quell confusion.

What did you think I meant? :)

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I'd like to know how you record a nonvote. :)

Sorry my computer has been down.

"Any ballot not returned and opened shall be recorded and entered as a non vote". We have 131 members.So if 20 members did not return a ballot we believe it's recorded and counted.(same as obstaining) It would not matter if all 111 members approved or half it would still be 2/3's of all 131 members to approve the increase.

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