Matt Schafer Posted November 21, 2011 at 09:03 AM Report Share Posted November 21, 2011 at 09:03 AM At a recent meeting during which I was chairman, a main motion was made that contained a blank. I asked for suggestions to fill the blank. After two suggestions were made, one member requested the floor; when granted, the member spoke against one of the suggestions. I had not yet closed suggestions, and no motion to Close Suggestions had been made. At this time, the parliamentarian raised a point of order that debate was not allowed until suggestions have been closed.Not knowing the correct ruling, the assembly stood at ease while the parliamentarian and I both tried to find something in RONR (11th edition) that spoke to this. Item 22 on tinted pages 10-11 states that proposals for filling blanks are debatable if the motion with the blank is debatable. Page 164, lines 24-25 also state this.What do you think? Can the members debate the proposals for filling a blank before suggestions have been closed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Cisar Posted November 21, 2011 at 09:39 AM Report Share Posted November 21, 2011 at 09:39 AM The immediate pending business was making suggestions. IMO debate was not proper at that moment. Get more than one activity going at a time and you have confusion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Honemann Posted November 21, 2011 at 02:14 PM Report Share Posted November 21, 2011 at 02:14 PM At a recent meeting during which I was chairman, a main motion was made that contained a blank. I asked for suggestions to fill the blank. After two suggestions were made, one member requested the floor; when granted, the member spoke against one of the suggestions. I had not yet closed suggestions, and no motion to Close Suggestions had been made. At this time, the parliamentarian raised a point of order that debate was not allowed until suggestions have been closed.Not knowing the correct ruling, the assembly stood at ease while the parliamentarian and I both tried to find something in RONR (11th edition) that spoke to this. Item 22 on tinted pages 10-11 states that proposals for filling blanks are debatable if the motion with the blank is debatable. Page 164, lines 24-25 also state this.What do you think? Can the members debate the proposals for filling a blank before suggestions have been closed?I think that what Dr. Cisar has said in response to this question makes all kinds of sense, but I don’t think that anything in RONR supports the idea that suggestions for filing blanks must be closed before suggestions can be debated. In fact, what is said on page 167, lines 15-30, seems to imply just the opposite. Although the Previous Question “cannot be ordered to stop the making of suggestions …”, ordering the Previous Question on all pending questions before a blank is filled “brings the assembly to an immediate vote on suggestions already made to fill the blank, if any …” The clear implication here, it seems to me, is that the Previous Question may be moved and ordered to stop further debate on suggestions which is occurring before suggestions have been closed.In any event, Mr. Schafer, what was your ruling in response to the (parliamentarian's ??) point of order? You can help us out here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Schafer Posted November 21, 2011 at 06:52 PM Author Report Share Posted November 21, 2011 at 06:52 PM I think that what Dr. Cisar has said in response to this question makes all kinds of sense, but I don’t think that anything in RONR supports the idea that suggestions for filing blanks must be closed before suggestions can be debated.This was exactly my thinking at the time. It would certainly be more orderly for suggestions to be closed before starting to debate them, but I couldn't find a rule to support that notion.In any event, Mr. Schafer, what was your ruling in response to the (parliamentarian's ??) point of order? You can help us out here. I ruled the point not well taken, citing the rule in p. 164, l. 24-25, and noting that no other rule addresses the debatability of proposals to fill a blank before suggestions have been closed.(Our organization has a special rule of order that if the parliamentarian is a member of the assembly, he retains full membership rights.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary c Tesser Posted November 21, 2011 at 06:59 PM Report Share Posted November 21, 2011 at 06:59 PM Is it any different, then, from debate (on nominations) when an election is pending? In general, I'm probably more easily confused than Dr Cisar or Mr Honemann; probably more easily confused than both of them put together -- but it seems to me that discussion of the suggestions already made can fruitfully yield more, perhaps better, suggestions (the dark horses often mentioned in the case of elections). If for $150,000 we can get a new fire truck, but for another mere $25,000 we can get a rare orchid, why not? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Honemann Posted November 21, 2011 at 07:11 PM Report Share Posted November 21, 2011 at 07:11 PM Is it any different, then, from debate (on nominations) when an election is pending?No, I don't think so, but why do you ask? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary c Tesser Posted November 21, 2011 at 08:46 PM Report Share Posted November 21, 2011 at 08:46 PM No, I don't think so, but why do you ask?Because it seems there's no issue about that one, so why would there be an issue about this one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Honemann Posted November 21, 2011 at 08:53 PM Report Share Posted November 21, 2011 at 08:53 PM Because it seems there's no issue about that one, so why would there be an issue about this one.That's strange. Seems to me I've heard exactly this same question raised concerning nominations, but I'm no doubt confused.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Mervosh Posted November 21, 2011 at 09:01 PM Report Share Posted November 21, 2011 at 09:01 PM That's strange. Seems to me I've heard exactly this same question raised concerning nominations, but I'm no doubt confused..You have heard the same question regarding nominations, and if memory serves, there was really little doubt left in anyone's mind after the numerous times it was asked over the years, that the nomination could be debated when it was made, and it wasn't necessary to wait until nominations were closed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trina Posted November 22, 2011 at 03:07 PM Report Share Posted November 22, 2011 at 03:07 PM You have heard the same question regarding nominations, and if memory serves, there was really little doubt left in anyone's mind after the numerous times it was asked over the years, that the nomination could be debated when it was made, and it wasn't necessary to wait until nominations were closed.I've been searching for past threads, and, so far, haven't found a lot of discussion of this particular point. Here's one of relatively few:http://robertsrules....dpost__p__35113Starting at post #48 there is discussion of this question, and a number of posters suggest that the assembly adopt a motion to set a particular format for the debate, including the question of whether nominations can be debated as they are made (before all nominations are complete).Judging by this current thread, if the default situation in RONR is that nominations are debatable 'on the fly' -- i.e. members can speak up and debate as each nomination is made -- then wouldn't any format-of-debate motion which delayed debate until after the close of nominations require a vote to suspend the rules? Were some posters in the earlier thread mistaken, in suggesting that such a format-of-debate motion could simply be adopted by majority vote? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Mervosh Posted November 22, 2011 at 03:14 PM Report Share Posted November 22, 2011 at 03:14 PM I've been searching for past threads, and, so far, haven't found a lot of discussion of this particular point. Here's one of relatively few:http://robertsrules....dpost__p__35113Starting at post #48 there is discussion of this question, and a number of posters suggest that the assembly adopt a motion to set a particular format for the debate, including the question of whether nominations can be debated as they are made (before all nominations are complete).Judging by this current thread, if the default situation in RONR is that nominations are debatable 'on the fly' -- i.e. members can speak up and debate as each nomination is made -- then wouldn't any format-of-debate motion which delayed debate until after the close of nominations require a vote to suspend the rules? Were some posters in the earlier thread mistaken, in suggesting that such a format-of-debate motion could simply be adopted by majority vote?A 2/3 vote is required to set up a format such as a Q&A or candidate speeches followed by debate or limiting debate to "X" minutes, etc....What's bothersome is an assembly will debate every detail of their upcoming holiday party but not say a peep about who will lead their organization for the next year or two.So whether it's "on the fly" debate immediately after the nomination is made, which in my view is the default rule in RONR, or another format adopted by a 2/3 vote or unanimous consent, just debate them!(Oh and you'll probably find most of the threads in the old forum somewhere....many of us have been loitering here too many years ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.