Proper motion and voting for multiple alternatives

[edclme0267]

Two budget alternatives, budget A and budget B, are being considered for adoption. A majority is required to pass a budget. Are these the proper steps?

1. The motion stated: "I move that budget A and budget B be voted on."
   
2. A second
   
3. Chair repeats motion and second and opens discussion.
   
4. When discussion concludes, Chair puts the motion to a vote.
   
5. Chair states "All in favor of budget A, please rise for a count." Chair and another member count & record.
   
6. Chair states "All in favor of budget B, please rise for a count." Ditto the count & record.
   
7. Possible voting outcomes; example 60 members in attendance and all vote, majority = 31.
   
   • If one budget receives 31 or more votes, it is adopted.
     
   • If neither budget receives 31 or more votes, neither is adopted. Then the Chair calls for another vote until one budget receives a majority.
     

Thanks, Ed

[Josh Martin]

Two budget alternatives, budget A and budget B, are being considered for adoption. A majority is required to pass a budget. Are these the proper steps?

1. The motion stated: "I move that budget A and budget B be voted on."
   
2. A second
   
3. Chair repeats motion and second and opens discussion.
   
4. When discussion concludes, Chair puts the motion to a vote.
   
5. Chair states "All in favor of budget A, please rise for a count." Chair and another member count & record.
   
6. Chair states "All in favor of budget B, please rise for a count." Ditto the count & record.
   
7. Possible voting outcomes; example 60 members in attendance and all vote, majority = 31.
   
   • If one budget receives 31 or more votes, it is adopted.
     
   • If neither budget receives 31 or more votes, neither is adopted. Then the Chair calls for another vote until one budget receives a majority.
     

No, these are not the proper steps. The appropriate steps would be as follows:

• The motion stated: "I move to adopt Budget A."
  
• A second
  
• Chair repeats motion and second and opens the motion to discussion.
  
• The budget is perfected through amendment. Amendments follow the same procedure as for the main motion (motion, second, discussion, vote). Amendments may be amended while pending, but amendments to amendments cannot be amended because that would get too confusing.
  
• When discussion concludes, Chair puts the motion to a vote.
  
• Chair states "All in favor of the adoption of the budget, please rise for a count." Chair and another member count & record. (Strictly speaking, a counted vote is not generally used for the first step, but it is appropriate if the chair expects the vote to be close).
  
• Chair states "All opposed to the adoption of the budget, please rise for a count." Ditto the count & record.
  
• Possible voting outcomes; example 60 members in attendance and all vote, majority = 31.
  
  • If the budget receives 31 or more votes, it is adopted.
    
  • If the budget does not receive 31 or more votes, it is not adopted. The next step would likely be a motion to Reconsider.
    

The problem with your original strategy is that it limits members to only the two budgets presented, whereas the members are truly free to adopt any budget they desire. The members may want Budget A with some changes, for instance. If it is desired to compare the merits of both budgets, a member could move to substitute Budget A with Budget B, in which case both are open to debate and amendment (amendments Budget A are considered first, then amendments to Budget B, then amendments to either budget).

[Guest Joey]

.... If it is desired to compare the merits of both budgets, a member could move to substitute Budget A with Budget B, in which case both are open to debate and amendment (amendments Budget A are considered first, then amendments to Budget B, then amendments to either budget).

I've encountered this variation concerning substitute amendments (is that the right term? anyway the move to substitute):

If a substitute motion is offered, the assembly shall first decide by majority vote

whether or not to consider the substitute. If this decision is in the affirmative and then

the substitute motion is adopted, the original motion fails; if the substitute motion

does not receive a favorable action either to consider or to adopt, the original

motion is again before the house.

I know it's outside RONR, but I'd like to know what experts think of this modification, if that's OK, please and thank you.

[Gary Novosielski]

Experts, generally, tend to think less of procedures that are outside RONR than they do of those that are inside it.

[Rev Ed]

The problem I see was that the original motion was to approve two budgets. As such, unless the motion was amended, or specifically divided, there should have only been one vote: either to approve both Budgets or defeat both Budgets. It would have been better to have had to separate motions if members wanted to vote on the budgets separately.

[Guest Edgar]

The problem I see was that the original motion was to approve two budgets.

No, the original motion was to vote on two budgets. Which they did, one at a time. The budget with the most votes won. Like an election.

[alanh49]

I believe what should happen is that one of the two budgets should be moved first and then the other one as a substitute and if the substitute is approved a vote would then be taken on adopting the budget as amended.

Also before a vote is taken on the substitute members will have a chance to amend first the original motion and then the substitute.

[edclme0267]

Thank you for your responses. If the motion is to adopt budget A and it passes. It also seems possible that the next motion could be to adopt budget B and it could pass. Then where would we be?

With multiple options, I used the "election" motion scenario since both A & B could be considered. After approving A or B, could it then be moved that the approved budget be amended?

Would you direct me to the resource for substitute motions?

Thanks, Ed

[jstackpo]

Responding by the paragraph:

If both adopted, where? Up you-know-what creek.

Amend after adoption? The proper procedure is to amend first to get it "right", then adopt (or defeat) the result. You can "amend something previously adopted" - p. 305 - but it is more difficult.

Resource: RONR, p. 130 ff. A large section, so be ready to settle down in front of a fireplace. Also RONRIB, p. 47.

RONRIB:

"Roberts Rules of Order Newly Revised In Brief", Updated Second Edition (Da Capo Press, Perseus Books Group, 2011). It is a splendid summary of all the rules you will really need in all but the most exceptional situations. And only $7.50! You can read it in an evening.

[Josh Martin]

I know it's outside RONR, but I'd like to know what experts think of this modification, if that's OK, please and thank you.

This variation is unwise. The purpose for the procedure of handling a substitute under RONR is to permit the supporters of the original resolution an opportunity to perfect it. In the variation you have described, the members are deprived of this opportunity. It's also worth noting that under RONR, an assembly cannot amend a resolution after it has been substituted except by adding to it, since there was an opportunity to perfect the substitute while it is pending, although I would imagine that this rule is ignored in an assembly which uses the variant rule you have described.

If the motion is to adopt budget A and it passes. It also seems possible that the next motion could be to adopt budget B and it could pass. Then where would we be?

If the motion is to adopt Budget A and it passes, a motion to adopt Budget B is not in order, since it conflicts with the budget the assembly has already adopted. If members wished to change the budget at that point they should use the motion to Reconsider (or after the time limits for that motion have passed, the motion to Amend Something Previously Adopted). Of course, it would have been wiser for the members to move Budget B as a substitute while Budget A is pending.

With multiple options, I used the "election" motion scenario since both A & B could be considered. After approving A or B, could it then be moved that the approved budget be amended?

Yes, but it would require a motion to Amend Something Previously Adopted (which takes a higher voting threshold) or the motion to adopt the budget would need to be reconsidered. It is much simpler to amend a budget while it is pending.

[edclme0267]

From Josh Martin: "The members may want Budget A with some changes, for instance. If it is desired to compare the merits of both budgets, a member could move to substitute Budget A with Budget B, in which case both are open to debate and amendment (amendments Budget A are considered first, then amendments to Budget B, then amendments to either budget)."

For clarification, after it is moved & seconded to adopt Budget A and then it is moved an seconded to substitute Budget B, amendments are considered in the order above.

• After discussion, does the chair first ask for a vote on the substitute motion to adopt Budget B (as amended)?
  
• If Budget B (as amended) passes, is Budget A (as amended) now out of order?
  
• If Budget B (as amended) fails, then the chair asks for vote on Budget A (as amended.)
  

Thanks, Ed

[Tim Wynn]

For clarification, after it is moved & seconded to adopt Budget A and then it is moved an seconded to substitute Budget B, amendments are considered in the order above.

• After discussion, does the chair first ask for a vote on the substitute motion to adopt Budget B (as amended)?
  
• If Budget B (as amended) passes, is Budget A (as amended) now out of order?
  
• If Budget B (as amended) fails, then the chair asks for vote on Budget A (as amended.)
  

Thanks, Ed

See RONR (11th ed.), p. 153, l. 22 ff, for the details of the motion to substitute.

[Josh Martin]

After discussion, does the chair first ask for a vote on the substitute motion to adopt Budget B (as amended)?

Yes, after discussion and amendment on both the original resolution (Budget A) and the substitute (Budget B ). The resolution now pending before the assembly (Budget B ) is then open to further debate and amendment (although only by adding new material) and is then put to a vote.

If Budget B (as amended) passes, is Budget A (as amended) now out of order?

Yes. Once a budget has been adopted, the only way to change it is by the motion to Reconsider or the motion to Amend Something Previously Adopted. It cannot be replaced simply by adopting a new budget. If Budget B has substituted Budget A but has not yet been adopted, a motion to substitute Budget A is still out of order, since the assembly has just decided that it wishes Budget B to come before the assembly in place of Budget A.

If Budget B (as amended) fails, then the chair asks for vote on Budget A (as amended.)

Well, if the vote to substitute Budget B for Budget A fails, then yes, the original resolution (Budget A) is open to further debate and amendment and is then put to a vote. On the other hand, if Budget B is substituted for Budget A and it then fails, then no resolution is pending before the assembly. A motion to Reconsider could be made, or a new motion to adopt a budget could be introduced if it presented a substantially new question.