Voting for election of officers

[Guest JP]

Our club’s Nom. Comm. presented its slate for the 7 officer positions at this month’s meeting. Two nominations from the floor occurred, each dealing with a different office. Thus, we have 5 candidates unchallenged and two candidates each challenged by one person. This has never happened before. Elections are next month and we don’t know what procedures we are required to follow. Our by-laws don’t cover this situation but they do state that if anything isn’t within the by-laws that RR govern. So we are looking for your help in finding the documentation within RR that says how the following should be handled:

1. Are we right in thinking that if there is more than one candidate running for any of the 7 offices that paper ballots are required? Some members have a big concern about simply voting by a show of hands in fear of intimidation and/or retaliation based on for whom they vote. There is also the concern about the voting results of a show of hands as some members get confused easily and would wind up voting for both candidates running for the same office.

2. If paper ballots are not required by RR, what are the options as to how the voting should be handled? Is there a way of getting paper ballots to be required?

3. If paper ballots are required, must the ballot list all 7 positions or only the two positions for which multiple candidates are involved with the other 5 positions being elected by a motion saying the Secre. will cast one vote for each of the 5?

4. If all 7 candidates are required to be on the paper ballot, what happens if a person who doesn’t have any competition doesn’t get a majority yes vote from the eligible members voting? Example, 35 eligible members are present and this candidate only gets 10 votes. Would this person still be considered elected?

5. If paper ballots are required, who counts the ballots? Is it the Nom. Comm. or does the President decide who will do it and must it be multiple people? Can the competing candidates (or even the slate candidates) be present during the counting so that no one will be able to challenge the voting results later?

6. What happens if we don’t have a quorum at the meeting at which the voting will occur?

a. If the lack of a quorum is realized before the voting starts, must the voting be rescheduled to another day (a special meeting or the next reg. meeting) and must all members receive written notice of this? Could a motion be made and approved to disregard the by-laws requirements that all meetings require the defined quorum so the voting could occur that day?

b. If the lack of a quorum is realized after the election results are announced but before the meeting adjourns, is the election final or does it become null and void and we would need another meeting for elections?

c. If the meeting adjourns without someone pointing out there is a lack of a quorum, is the election final or does it become null and void and we would need another meeting for redoing the elections?

Both the Nom. Comm.’s candidates and the nominations from the floor candidates share similar concerns. They all want to have everyone feel the elections were handled properly and fairly regardless of who the ultimate winners are.

We appreciate your help in finding the answers to the above questions in RR. Thanks

[Tim Wynn]

Our club’s Nom. Comm. presented its slate for the 7 officer positions at this month’s meeting. Two nominations from the floor occurred, each dealing with a different office. Thus, we have 5 candidates unchallenged and two candidates each challenged by one person. This has never happened before. Elections are next month and we don’t know what procedures we are required to follow. Our by-laws don’t cover this situation but they do state that if anything isn’t within the by-laws that RR govern. So we are looking for your help in finding the documentation within RR that says how the following should be handled:

1. Are we right in thinking that if there is more than one candidate running for any of the 7 offices that paper ballots are required? Some members have a big concern about simply voting by a show of hands in fear of intimidation and/or retaliation based on for whom they vote. There is also the concern about the voting results of a show of hands as some members get confused easily and would wind up voting for both candidates running for the same office.

Ballots are only required if the bylaws or other rule of your organization so provides.

2. If paper ballots are not required by RR, what are the options as to how the voting should be handled? Is there a way of getting paper ballots to be required?

Any member can move that the vote be taken by ballot. This requires a second and a majority vote to adopt. If it is adopted, the vote must be taken by ballot.

3. If paper ballots are required, must the ballot list all 7 positions or only the two positions for which multiple candidates are involved with the other 5 positions being elected by a motion saying the Secre. will cast one vote for each of the 5?

If the bylaws require a ballot vote, you must have a ballot vote. There is no getting around that.

4. If all 7 candidates are required to be on the paper ballot, what happens if a person who doesn’t have any competition doesn’t get a majority yes vote from the eligible members voting? Example, 35 eligible members are present and this candidate only gets 10 votes. Would this person still be considered elected?

In an election, a “yes or no” vote should not be used. The only way to vote AGAINST one candidate is to vote FOR another. This eliminates the problem to which you refer.

5. If paper ballots are required, who counts the ballots? Is it the Nom. Comm. or does the President decide who will do it and must it be multiple people? Can the competing candidates (or even the slate candidates) be present during the counting so that no one will be able to challenge the voting results later?

The chair appoints tellers to handle the votes. These individuals should be selected for accuracy and dependability and should have the confidence of the membership. The nominating committee ceases to exist as soon as it has reported; it has no hand in the rest of the process.

6. What happens if we don’t have a quorum at the meeting at which the voting will occur?

Then, you don’t have an election.

a. If the lack of a quorum is realized before the voting starts, must the voting be rescheduled to another day (a special meeting or the next reg. meeting) and must all members receive written notice of this? Could a motion be made and approved to disregard the by-laws requirements that all meetings require the defined quorum so the voting could occur that day?

You can’t have an election without a quorum, so you should round up some members to satisfy the quorum or schedule an adjourned meeting at which the election can be held. An adjourned meeting does not require notice, but it is desirable to give such notice if feasible. See RONR (11th ed.), p. 244, ll. 21-23. A quorum requirement cannot be suspended.

b. If the lack of a quorum is realized after the election results are announced but before the meeting adjourns, is the election final or does it become null and void and we would need another meeting for elections?

c. If the meeting adjourns without someone pointing out there is a lack of a quorum, is the election final or does it become null and void and we would need another meeting for redoing the elections?

What you’ve described is a situation where the results are announced in a meeting where a quorum was presumed to have been present. RONR (11th ed.), p. 349, ll. 21-28 says, “Because of the difficulty likely to be encountered in determining exactly how long the meeting has been without a quorum in such cases, a point of order relating to the absence of a quorum is generally not permitted to affect prior action; but upon clear and convincing proof, such a point of order can be given effect retrospectively by a ruling of the presiding officer, subject to appeal.”

[jstackpo]

In the order you asked...

1) Ballots are required if your bylaws require them. If they don't and members are concerned, anybody can move that the voting be by ballot (majority to adopt that motion).

2) The uncontested candidates can simply be declared elected, "by acclamation" - no voting required. See second half of answer #1.

3) List all candidates and vote for all you like. None of this "Secretary casts..." business unless bylaws explicitly allow it.

4) You don't vote "Yes" or "No" in elections. You vote for one person or another. Or write in someone and vote for him. One vote for someone, in the absence of other votes for someone else, is sufficient to win.

5) The chair appoints a tellers committee, presumably with two main qualifications: honesty and ability to count. Observers can observe; best to keep the candidates out.

6.a ) Reschedule? Yes; notice required? No, but it is a good idea anyway; disregard bylaws? Bite you tongue for even THINKING of such a thing.

6.b ) A little tricky... someone has to notice and raise the point of order immediately after the results are announced. If there is no quorum and the point raised immediately, then election is void. Otherwise, election is OK -- a point of order later in the meeting is too late.

6.c) Election is valid.

Last paragraph: Good for you!

[Tim Wynn]

… disregard bylaws? Bite you tongue for even THINKING of such a thing…

Hey, the tongue didn't think it. The mind always gets away with everything.

6.b ) A little tricky... someone has to notice and raise the point of order immediately after the results are announced. If there is no quorum and the point raised immediately, then election is void. Otherwise, election is OK -- a point of order later in the meeting is too late.

Care to rethink this one?

[Josh Martin]

1. Are we right in thinking that if there is more than one candidate running for any of the 7 offices that paper ballots are required? Some members have a big concern about simply voting by a show of hands in fear of intimidation and/or retaliation based on for whom they vote. There is also the concern about the voting results of a show of hands as some members get confused easily and would wind up voting for both candidates running for the same office.

A ballot vote is not required unless your rules say so. A ballot vote is generally a good idea for contested elections, however, partly for the reasons you have listed.

2. If paper ballots are not required by RR, what are the options as to how the voting should be handled?

Ballot, roll call, voice vote, show of hands vote, rising vote... the same options as for any other vote, really.

Is there a way of getting paper ballots to be required?

The assembly may order a ballot vote to be taken for an election by majority vote. If you want a more permanent solution, adopt a special rule of order on the subject or amend the Bylaws.

3. If paper ballots are required, must the ballot list all 7 positions or only the two positions for which multiple candidates are involved with the other 5 positions being elected by a motion saying the Secre. will cast one vote for each of the 5?

If a ballot vote is required or has been ordered, then a motion to have the Secretary cast a ballot for a candidate is out of order. Even if a ballot vote isn't required or hasn't been ordered, the procedure of having the Secretary cast a single ballot is antiquated and should not be used.

If your rules require a ballot vote, you have to take a ballot vote for all positions, not just the contested ones (unless your Bylaws provide an exception for the uncontested positions). If your rules do not require a ballot vote, the appropriate course is for the chair to declare the uncontested candidates elected by acclamation and to take a ballot vote only on the contested positions. Also, it's up to the assembly whether to elect all positions on one ballot or to use separate ballots.

4. If all 7 candidates are required to be on the paper ballot, what happens if a person who doesn’t have any competition doesn’t get a majority yes vote from the eligible members voting?

Well, you don't have a "yes/no" vote. Members have to vote for a person. A member with no competition might still fail to get a majority due to write-in votes, although this is generally unlikely. As noted, it's only required to have a ballot vote for all positions if your rules require a ballot vote.

Example, 35 eligible members are present and this candidate only gets 10 votes. Would this person still be considered elected?

There isn't enough information to answer the question, since the outcome is based on the number of ballots cast (excluding blanks). Some members might abstain. Assuming all 35 members voted, however, and 25 of them cast write-in votes, the candidate on the ballot would not be elected.

5. If paper ballots are required, who counts the ballots?

A committee appointed by the chair, called a Tellers' Committee.

Is it the Nom. Comm.

No. Some or all of the committee's members might be appointed to the Tellers' Committee, but the Nominating Committee itself goes out of existence when it makes its report and has no further duties.

or does the President decide who will do it

Yes.

must it be multiple people?

It doesn't have to be multiple people... but that's generally a good idea.

[Josh Martin]

Can the competing candidates (or even the slate candidates) be present during the counting so that no one will be able to challenge the voting results later?

It's up to the tellers' committee to decide who may be present during the counting of the ballots, although the assembly may give the committee instructions on this topic if it wishes. This does not actually mean that "no one will be able to challenge the voting results later," but it might reduce the likelihood of challenges.

6. What happens if we don’t have a quorum at the meeting at which the voting will occur?

The assembly should schedule an adjourned meeting and when the election becomes pending, postpone the election to that meeting.

a. If the lack of a quorum is realized before the voting starts, must the voting be rescheduled to another day (a special meeting or the next reg. meeting

Yes, unless you can round up some more members for the same meeting - might be practical if you're just barely short of a quorum. Also, this would be what RONR calls an "adjourned meeting," not a special meeting. You could also wait until the next regular meeting but an adjourned meeting is preferable if it's at all practical.

must all members receive written notice of this?

No, but it's probably a good idea. It should improve your chances of getting a quorum at the later meeting.

Could a motion be made and approved to disregard the by-laws requirements that all meetings require the defined quorum so the voting could occur that day?

No.

b. If the lack of a quorum is realized after the election results are announced but before the meeting adjourns, is the election final or does it become null and void and we would need another meeting for elections?

c. If the meeting adjourns without someone pointing out there is a lack of a quorum, is the election final or does it become null and void and we would need another meeting for redoing the elections?

The election is final unless there is clear and convincing proof that a quorum was not present at the time of the election, in which case the election is null and void. The election can be redone at a later meeting or the same meeting - whenever you can round up a quorum.

In an election, a “yes or no” vote should not be used. The only way to vote AGAINST one candidate is to vote FOR another. This eliminates the problem to which you refer.

Well, not really, although it makes it somewhat less likely. Write-in votes are permitted unless the Bylaws provide otherwise.

Otherwise, election is OK -- a point of order later in the meeting is too late.

6.c) Election is valid.

Even if there's clear and convincing proof that a quorum was not present?

[Tim Wynn]

4. … what happens if a person who doesn’t have any competition doesn’t get a majority yes vote from the eligible members voting?

In an election, a “yes or no” vote should not be used. The only way to vote AGAINST one candidate is to vote FOR another. This eliminates the problem to which you refer.

Well, not really, although it makes it somewhat less likely. Write-in votes are permitted unless the Bylaws provide otherwise.

The question was concerned with a candidate who doesn't have any competition failing to receive a majority of "yes" votes. When the rule on p. 414, ll. 1-5, is followed, this possibility is eliminated. While there's no guarantee that he will be elected, if he gets at least one vote he WILL be elected. Write-in votes don't play into it; if there is a write-in vote, he has competition.

[Josh Martin]

Write-in votes don't play into it; if there is a write-in vote, he has competition.

True, but when the average member of a society states that a person "doesn't have any competition," this usually does not take into account competition that may arise in the future, since the average member of a society is not psychic.

[Tim Wynn]

True, but... ... the average member of a society is not psychic.

I have trouble keeping that in mind. I actually grew up and live next to the Psychic Capital of the World.

[David A Foulkes]

4. If all 7 candidates are required to be on the paper ballot, what happens if a person who doesn’t have any competition doesn’t get a majority yes vote from the eligible members voting? Example, 35 eligible members are present and this candidate only gets 10 votes. Would this person still be considered elected?

Not sure if I'm clarifying this point, or maybe it's just that the question was confusedly (for me at least) framed, but ....... assuming the 35 eligible members are the voting members, and the unopposed candidate gets 10 votes, and the other 25 members abstain from voting on that office, then the member is elected. It's a majority of votes cast, not a majority of members present (unless the rules say so), so with 35 members voting, no candidate has to necessarily receive 18 or more votes to win. Also, I'm ignoring the reference to the yes/no voting here in order to make this point, and since that's been addressed previously.

[Tim Wynn]

Not sure if I'm clarifying this point, or maybe it's just that the question was confusedly (for me at least) framed, but ....... assuming the 35 eligible members are the voting members, and the unopposed candidate gets 10 votes, and the other 25 members abstain from voting on that office, then the member is elected. It's a majority of votes cast, not a majority of members present (unless the rules say so), so with 35 members voting, no candidate has to necessarily receive 18 or more votes to win. Also, I'm ignoring the reference to the yes/no voting here in order to make this point, and since that's been addressed previously.

It's unclear what's unclear to the original poster. In any event, a For-or-Against vote is not applicable to elections, as a voter can only vote against a candidate by voting for another, in accordance with the rules previously cited. With any luck, that much is now clear.

[Guest Guest]

In the election of a president of an organization, if there is more than one candidate, and despite silence in the organization's charter, the body proceeds to vote on the first nomination first, and the first nominee wins election, is that process legal?  I am told that there is a section of RR which states that if votes have been taken in a certain way as a matter of custom, then that custom shall prevail.  Is that a valid argument?  The citing of chapter and verse would be appreciated.

[Guest Edgar]

 . . . is that process legal?

 

This thread is nearly three years old. Please post your questions as a new topic. This forum works best that way. Thanks.

[Gary c Tesser]

This thread is nearly three years old. Please post your questions as a new topic. This forum works best that way. Thanks.

 

Yeah, that'll help.  This re-opening is really gonna bother the original poster, JP.