ebear422 Posted October 6, 2012 at 07:58 PM Report Share Posted October 6, 2012 at 07:58 PM Later today there will be a meeting following an election for a trustee on the board of a cooperative. At the last district meeting, four years ago, a member of management absconded with the notes of the person who had been selected to serve as secretary for this meeting, and much later (far beyond what I understand is a limit of ten days) the management came out with laundered minutes. At this meeting the minutes will come up for approval and I intend to suggest that they be rejected. I suppose when the chairman asks if there are any additions of corrections, that would be the time to put in my two cents. Does anyone have advice on this? I probably should have thought of asking this question sooner; it will happen in three hours.;B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnR Posted October 6, 2012 at 08:01 PM Report Share Posted October 6, 2012 at 08:01 PM It's not in order to "vote against" approval of the minutes, only to propose corrections. In the case of disagreement, these corrections may be put to a vote. But the minutes must eventually be approved in a form which is acceptable to the majority. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Edgar Posted October 6, 2012 at 08:31 PM Report Share Posted October 6, 2012 at 08:31 PM Later today there will be a meeting . . . At the last district meeting, four years ago . . . At this meeting the minutes will come up for approval . . . I probably should have thought of asking this question sooner . . .Yes indeed; four years is much too long to wait for the approval of minutes. Four months is about the limit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ebear422 Posted October 6, 2012 at 09:08 PM Author Report Share Posted October 6, 2012 at 09:08 PM It's not in order to "vote against" approval of the minutes, only to propose corrections. In the case of disagreement, these corrections may be put to a vote. But the minutes must eventually be approved in a form which is acceptable to the majority.'Eventually' is probably the key to this conundrum. I don't see how they can be properly corrected today since the original notes are (apparently) gone, or at least have never been made available to either the membership nor the aggrieved secretary. This outfit is going tooth and nail from an eleven member imperious board to a five-member hopefully reasonable board, and the current chairman is really horrible but fortunately has only one more year to sit. Thanks for the feedback. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Edgar Posted October 6, 2012 at 09:18 PM Report Share Posted October 6, 2012 at 09:18 PM . . . the current chairman is really horrible but fortunately has only one more year to sit.He also has only one vote.But you've waited four years to approve the minutes of the last meeting so, hey, what's one more year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Wynn Posted October 6, 2012 at 09:41 PM Report Share Posted October 6, 2012 at 09:41 PM 'Eventually' is probably the key to this conundrum. I don't see how they can be properly corrected today since the original notes are (apparently) gone, or at least have never been made available to either the membership nor the aggrieved secretary.This outfit is going tooth and nail from an eleven member imperious board to a five-member hopefully reasonable board, and the current chairman is really horrible but fortunately has only one more year to sit.Thanks for the feedback.Apparently your organization holds meetings only in Olympic years. That's interesting. In such a case, the minutes should not wait four years for approval. The board or a committee should be authorized to approve the minutes, preferably before the Winter Olympics. In any case, after the minutes have been approved, they can still be amended at a later time, should someone suddenly recall a detail or two. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Nancy N. Posted October 8, 2012 at 07:20 PM Report Share Posted October 8, 2012 at 07:20 PM Coming in late...First thought. IIRC, ten days is not required or recommended for anything in RONR.This might be esprit d'escalier for OP ebear422, but ISTM that if the procedures in RONR are followed, then if the secretary does not present his minutes for approval, nobody else's proposal has any standing. Unless this coop's rules do give some standing to the management's offered draft, the cooperative's meeting will not have a set of draft minutes at all. (For that matter, unless the management persons are members of the cooperative, or unless special rules provide, the management persons have no rights at the meeting at all, and may only speak with permission of the assembly. That includes permission to submit proposed four-year-old minutes.)In this instance, I'd suggest that the committee, or the board, that the assembly authorizes to approve the minutes (and do it sooner rather than in a couple of years) be concurrently assigned to draft those minutes. They should feel welcome to look at the management's ancient laundered minutes (probably still clean, but dusty) as much as they want._______N.B. Can two "if" clauses result in just one "then" clause? Or can the first "if" clause result in an intermediate clause that is both "if" and "then"?3. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Edgar Posted October 8, 2012 at 07:36 PM Report Share Posted October 8, 2012 at 07:36 PM Can two "if" clauses result in just one "then" clause? Or can the first "if" clause result in an intermediate clause that is both "if" and "then"?I may have to dust off my instruction book for WFF 'n' Proof and get back to you. But, to be clear, are you asking if there can be a Well-Formed Formula (WFF) of the form, "If A and if B then Z"? That seems pretty simple. Your second statement is less clear (to me) so perhaps you could provide a comparable example? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnR Posted October 8, 2012 at 07:44 PM Report Share Posted October 8, 2012 at 07:44 PM This might be esprit d'escalier for OP ebear422, but ISTM that if the procedures in RONR are followed, then if the secretary does not present his minutes for approval, nobody else's proposal has any standing.If that were true, an absent or incalcitrant secretary could hold the minutes hostage forever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David A Foulkes Posted October 8, 2012 at 07:51 PM Report Share Posted October 8, 2012 at 07:51 PM I may have to dust off my instruction book for WFF 'n' Proof and get back to you. But, to be clear, are you asking if there can be a Well-Formed Formula (WFF) of the form, "If A and if B then Z"? That seems pretty simple. Your second statement is less clear (to me) so perhaps you could provide a comparable example?Your second if seems superfluous, in the absence at least of an ElseIf somewhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Edgar Posted October 8, 2012 at 08:09 PM Report Share Posted October 8, 2012 at 08:09 PM Your second if seems superfluous . . .I agree it's superfluous. It was added as an afterthought to conform with "Nancy N.'s" reference to "two 'if' clauses". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Nancy N. Posted October 8, 2012 at 08:23 PM Report Share Posted October 8, 2012 at 08:23 PM If that were true, an absent or incalcitrant secretary could hold the minutes hostage forever.If that's implied by what I said, then I said it wrong. I meant that if the secretary's draft is unavailable, as in ebear422's (the OP) case, then the assembly starts from scratch, in practice probably assigning a committee to whip up a draft, rather than having to take whatever is available, such as a manager's laundered version, as the default, which will perforce be approved with probably inadequate opportunity for correcting them first.4. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Novosielski Posted October 8, 2012 at 08:27 PM Report Share Posted October 8, 2012 at 08:27 PM If that were true, an absent or incalcitrant recalcitrant secretary could hold the minutes hostage forever.Fixed that for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnR Posted October 8, 2012 at 08:29 PM Report Share Posted October 8, 2012 at 08:29 PM Well, I don't think the assembly has to take whatever is available, but it certainly may if it wishes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnR Posted October 8, 2012 at 08:32 PM Report Share Posted October 8, 2012 at 08:32 PM Fixed that for you. Oops. I think my neologism is "recalcitrant" plus "intransigent." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Nancy N. Posted October 8, 2012 at 08:59 PM Report Share Posted October 8, 2012 at 08:59 PM Nancy N., on 08 October 2012 - 02:20 PM, said:Can two "if" clauses result in just one "then" clause? Or can the first "if" clause result in an intermediate clause that is both "if" and "then"?I may have to dust off my instruction book for WFF 'n' Proof and get back to you. But, to be clear, are you asking if there can be a Well-Formed Formula (WFF) of the form, "If A and if B then Z"? That seems pretty simple. Your second statement is less clear (to me) so perhaps you could provide a comparable example?How it looked to me was that B ("secretary does not present his minutes for approval") was another "if," but was also following from A ("the procedures in RONR are followed"). Better forget it (although thanks for the link to WFF 'n' Proof; it's intriguing).1. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Mervosh Posted October 9, 2012 at 01:20 PM Report Share Posted October 9, 2012 at 01:20 PM If that's implied by what I said, then I said it wrong. I meant that if the secretary's draft is unavailable, as in ebear422's (the OP) case, then the assembly starts from scratch, in practice probably assigning a committee to whip up a draft, rather than having to take whatever is available, such as a manager's laundered version, as the default, which will perforce be approved with probably inadequate opportunity for correcting them first.4.You've lost me through this whole thread. If a committee is assigned to produce minutes for the meeting in question, why can't they use the other draft as a base from which to start? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnR Posted October 9, 2012 at 03:33 PM Report Share Posted October 9, 2012 at 03:33 PM George, I think the question is: May the assembly approve on first presentation, with corrections, draft minutes which are authored by someone other than the secretary? Nancy N. says no, the assembly must start from scratch. I say yes, if that's what they want to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Mervosh Posted October 9, 2012 at 03:36 PM Report Share Posted October 9, 2012 at 03:36 PM George, I think the question is: May the assembly approve on first presentation, with corrections, draft minutes which are authored by someone other than the secretary? Nancy N. says no, the assembly must start from scratch. I say yes, if that's what they want to do.I agree.....as you noted in post 9. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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