Point of Order--does it need a vote?

[Guest Terry]

IF I make a point of order and there was an election that was conducted in a way that breached our bylaws, and was not consistent to what the board had decided was going to be anonymous ( then we got marked ballots with our name on them) can I ask for a re- election without a vote? If we don't have a chair yet, who will find the point of order to be well taken?

[Chris Harrison]

IF I make a point of order and there was an election that was conducted in a way that breached our bylaws, and was not consistent to what the board had decided was going to be anonymous ( then we got marked ballots with our name on them) can I ask for a re- election without a vote?

Generally a Point of Order is ruled on by the Chair without a vote being necessary though the Chair can place the question before the assembly if he is in doubt as to the correct ruling. However, that ruling can be Appealed which would require a vote. See RONR pp. 247-260 which discusses a Point of Order and Appeal.

If we don't have a chair yet, who will find the point of order to be well taken?

The Vice Chair (who would preside in the Chair's absence) or if the Vice Chair is also missing the assembly would elect a Chair pro tem who would have the same in-meeting duties as the regular Chair.

[Gary c Tesser]

Um. One step at a time....

Guest Terry, you started with a point of order, which calls attention to a rule that is being violated. What rule was being violated, that you pointed out?

(It'll be a lot easier to reply if you take a moment to register with the website.)

[Gary c Tesser]

Confound it, Chris, you're supposed to call me first.

Didn't you get the memo?

[Guest Terry]

There is no Chair, that is the problem. WE voted on a chair. WE the board of directors decided to do it anonymously, but the process was breached. the ballots went out labeled.

[David A Foulkes]

There is no Chair, that is the problem. WE voted on a chair. WE the board of directors decided to do it anonymously, but the process was breached. the ballots went out labeled.

Are you using the term "Chair" as a position (officer?) in your organization? RONR typically refers to President, Vice President, Treasurer and Secretary as the basic four officers as defined in the bylaws, and the term "chair" for the person who would preside at meetings. Does your organization use the terms Chair and Vice Chair similarly for President and Vice President?

[Guest Edgar]

There is no Chair, that is the problem. WE voted on a chair. WE the board of directors decided to do it anonymously, but the process was breached. the ballots went out labeled.

I assume you're referring to an election to select a "permanent" Chair (with a capital "C"). But before that happens you'd need to select a temporary chair (a chair pro tem) to preside over the meeting from its very beginning. And the selection of a chair pro tem should be a fairly straightforward process (i.e. usually no need for secret ballots).

So, are you referring to selecting a temporary presiding officer (a chair pro tem) or are you referring to electing someone to the office of Chair?

[Guest Terry]

Chair is the same as President at this point. We decided as a board to have an anonymous election and that did not happen.

[JohnR]

Until you invalidate the election, your new chair is in office. So he or she will, oddly enough, be the person to whom you raise the point of order. If the chair rejects your point, you can appeal and the assembled members will decide the issue.

However -- unless your bylaws required a ballot in this election, you don't have a continuing breach and it's too late to raise the point.

[David A Foulkes]

Until you invalidate the election, your new chair is in office. So he or she will, oddly enough, be the person to whom you raise the point of order. If the chair rejects your point, you can appeal and the assembled members will decide the issue.

However -- unless your bylaws required a ballot in this election, you don't have a continuing breach and it's too late to raise the point.

But if Guest_Terry's organization has a Vice Chair position (not vacant), and the rules in RONR are followed (i.e. VP becomes P upon P's mid-term departure, which is what I can only assume is behind all this), does that throw a kink into the election of a position that was not vacant?

Guest_Terry --- did your Chair leave office mid-term? Do you have a Vice Chair office as well, and is/was there a member in that position?

[Gary Novosielski]

There is no Chair, that is the problem. WE voted on a chair. WE the board of directors decided to do it anonymously, but the process was breached. the ballots went out labeled.

Who breached the process? From your description of mailed-in ballots (authorized, I hope, by your bylaws), it sounds like the membership is voting on these officers. If so, I'm not sure why the board would be making any decisions on an election which is not theirs to decide about.

Bear in mind that, unless your bylaws grant the board unusual powers, the election by members is carried out by members. Having said that, if the bylaws say that an election shall be by ballot, then there is no way to suspend that provision. But if the bylaws allow a choice of methods, then it's the members, not the board, who would ordinarily be making that choice. They could presumably override the board's decision and hold the elections as they pleased.

If this is truly an election by the board, why are mail-in ballots required? If the board voted to do it anonymously, why not just do it right then?

In any case, the person who would rule on a point of order is the person presiding over the meeting. You must have one, even if it's a chairman pro tem. You can't conduct business without a presiding officer, so you elect a temporary one right then and there. But points of order are subject to Appeal by any two members (a mover and a seconder) which places the matter in the hands of the assembly.