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Providing Notice of Motion When RONR methods aren't available.

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For several types of motions, the vote required depends upon whether prior notice was given at the previous meeting or sent to members with the call to meeting. A member wants to give prior notice of a motion but the organization does not issue calls to meetings because they are all regularly scheduled and the President just passes out the agendas at the meetings. The member has asked the Secretary to send an email out to all members providing the notice. The President, who believes the proposed motion would not be in order, told the Secretary not to do so. The member plans on sending the email himself. Will this suffice for notice? if a point of order/appeal should arise on whether proper notice was given, is it decided by the usual vote or does it require a higher threshold because the issue concerns a matter of notice?

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The member has asked the Secretary to send an email out to all members providing the notice. The President, who believes the proposed motion would not be in order, told the Secretary not to do so.

The President has no authority under RONR to do so. The Secretary should have told the President that if he didn't think that the motion would be in order that he could rule it that way at the meeting (subject to Appeal) and she should have sent out the notice anyway.

The member plans on sending the email himself. Will this suffice for notice?

Technically it wouldn't be. However, in my opinion if the President had exceeded his authority in ordering the Secretary to not send out the notice and the Secretary was derelict in her duty by obeying the President's improper order this member shouldn't be hamstrung by their actions/inaction and the notice should be allowed (provided that all of the members got the notice) and if I were a member I would Appeal any ruling saying that it wasn't allowed. Also, the members should consider disciplining the President and Secretary for their actions.

if a point of order/appeal should arise on whether proper notice was given, is it decided by the usual vote or does it require a higher threshold because the issue concerns a matter of notice?

It would be treated the same as any other Appeal.

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Technically it wouldn't be. However, in my opinion if the President had exceeded his authority in ordering the Secretary to not send out the notice and the Secretary was derelict in her duty by obeying the President's improper order this member shouldn't be hamstrung by their actions/inaction and the notice should be allowed (provided that all of the members got the notice) and if I were a member I would Appeal any ruling saying that it wasn't allowed. Also, the members should consider disciplining the President and Secretary for their actions.

I think this may be questionable. If the motion can wait until the next regular meeting (and the next meeting is within a quarterly interval), it might be better to provide notice at the meeting. Then at the next meeting, there will be no question as to whether notice has been given.

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I appreciate the added comments, but I would prefer to keep the discussion to the specific questions asked; otherwise, we lose focus.

A member has a motion to introduce at the next meeting. She wants to give prior notice so that only a majority vote is required. The officers are opposed to her motion and are preventing her from giving notice because they are certain she will not be able to muster the necessary 2/3 vote or a majority of the entire membership. While she could give notice and wait until the next meeting (which is another 3 months away), that would mean capitulating to the officers who are acting improperly to begin with. Notifying the members herself via email seems to be the practical solution under the circumstances. Just wanted to know if anyone has any other solutions that would enable her to have her motion adopted by a simple majority vote at THIS upcoming meeting. Also, if it comes to a point of order and appeal on whether notice was properly given, is that issue is resolved by a majority vote or one of the larger thresholds. We know that appeals usually require a majority in the negative -- but I'm unsure of whether that is still the case when the ruling involves a question of notice since notice is something that is designed to protect the rights of absentees as well as those who are present.

Thanks again

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A member has a motion to introduce at the next meeting. She wants to give prior notice so that only a majority vote is required. The officers are opposed to her motion and are preventing her from giving notice because they are certain she will not be able to muster the necessary 2/3 vote or a majority of the entire membership. While she could give notice and wait until the next meeting (which is another 3 months away), that would mean capitulating to the officers who are acting improperly to begin with. Notifying the members herself via email seems to be the practical solution under the circumstances. Just wanted to know if anyone has any other solutions that would enable her to have her motion adopted by a simple majority vote at THIS upcoming meeting. Also, if it comes to a point of order and appeal on whether notice was properly given, is that issue is resolved by a majority vote or one of the larger thresholds. We know that appeals usually require a majority in the negative -- but I'm unsure of whether that is still the case when the ruling involves a question of notice since notice is something that is designed to protect the rights of absentees as well as those who are present.

I can't think of another solution to have the motion adopted by a majority vote at the upcoming meeting, and the circumstances don't change the vote required to overturn the chair's ruling on appeal.

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I appreciate the added comments, but I would prefer to keep the discussion to the specific questions asked; otherwise, we lose focus.

Also, if it comes to a point of order and appeal on whether notice was properly given, is that issue is resolved by a majority vote or one of the larger thresholds. We know that appeals usually require a majority in the negative -- but I'm unsure of whether that is still the case when the ruling involves a question of notice since notice is something that is designed to protect the rights of absentees as well as those who are present.

First, as it's true that a president's authority outside of a meeting is limited to what is provided for in the bylaws, we can't opine whether a president has overstepped their authority without taking a peek at the bylaws. Also, I don't believe the question you've described is one which can be appealed. That is, the appeal you've described is dilatory as discussed on p. 342 (line 19). Either previous notice was provided for at the previous meeting or was provided in the call, or it wasn't provided at all; your later email doesn't count. RONR doesn't provide for this sort of exception. However, if the assembly is smaller in size and all members attend the meeting, the need for previous notice is waived, as there are no absentees. That is, there is no one's right to protect and thus, a majority vote would suffice without the previous notice. If one, two or a few members are absent, an alternative threshold for adoption may be a majority vote of the entire membership. If time is not a factor, Mr. Martin's earlier solution is your best alternative.

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Either previous notice was provided for at the previous meeting or was provided in the call, or it wasn't provided at all; your later email doesn't count. RONR doesn't provide for this sort of exception.

Provided that e-mail is an accepted form of notice in the society and all members receive notice, what rights of absentees have been violated?

While she could give notice and wait until the next meeting (which is another 3 months away), that would mean capitulating to the officers who are acting improperly to begin with.

If the only thing that makes you not want to wait is the fear that the officers are "getting away with it," one solution would be to discipline the officers. See FAQ #20.

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Provided that e-mail is an accepted form of notice in the society and all members receive notice, what rights of absentees have been violated?

If the only thing that makes you not want to wait is the fear that the officers are "getting away with it," one solution would be to discipline the officers. See FAQ #20.

I don't believe it's a matter of absentee rights. The matter corresponds to an officer's duty, which in this case is performed outside of a meeting by the secretary, and can only be carried out by the officer. I don't believe the poster's personal email to all members somehow suffices to provide relief from the explicit requirement that the notice be announced in the meeting's call. If time permits, the secretary could also issue a revised call and provide the notice by using any mode of allowable transmittal.

Edited by Steven Britton

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If smb (the original poster) wants to get a bit confrontational (presuming all else has failed) he/she could "Lean In" (to use a current book title) a bit and move, next meeting, to "censure" the President for exceeding his authority. This motion doesn't require notice. Majority to adopt.

This isn't going to get him anywhere with respect to his original motion but at least it will bring out the misbehavoir of the president and maybe get things straightened out in the long run.

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Provided that e-mail is an accepted form of notice in the society and all members receive notice, what rights of absentees have been violated?

Josh, I find it hard to believe that notice sent out by any Tom, Dick, or Harry constitutes a valid notice. If I send out the notice, will it suffice?

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Josh, I find it hard to believe that notice sent out by any Tom, Dick, or Harry constitutes a valid notice. If I send out the notice, will it suffice?

I think there is some distinction between a member and a non-member, but I can see your point. Members may question whether a notice which is not from the Secretary is valid, which undermines the purpose of the notice.

On the other hand, I can see the other side here as well. It seems unfortunate that the members lack adequate defenses against a rogue officer. Waiting three months or needing to meet a higher vote threshold is bad enough, but in other circumstances (such as a motion which requires previous notice and/or a society which meets less often than quarterly), the consequences would be even more severe.

If smb (the original poster) wants to get a bit confrontational (presuming all else has failed) he/she could "Lean In" (to use a current book title) a bit and move, next meeting, to "censure" the President for exceeding his authority. This motion doesn't require notice. Majority to adopt.

I'd say censure is letting him off easy.

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I think there is some distinction between a member and a non-member, but I can see your point. Members may question whether a notice which is not from the Secretary is valid, which undermines the purpose of

the notice.

On the other hand, I can see the other side here as well. It seems unfortunate that the members lack adequate defenses against a rogue officer. Waiting three months or needing to meet a higher vote threshold is bad enough, but in other circumstances (such as a motion which requires previous notice and/or a society which meets less often than quarterly), the consequences would be even more severe.

I'd say censure is letting him off easy.

Well, we really don't know all relevant facts. I've no idea what "... the organization does not issue calls to meetings because they are all regularly scheduled and the President just passes out the agendas at the meetings" means. Did the organization actually decide that notices of regular meetings will not be sent out? If so, then it, and not RONR, has eliminated this option.

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