Bryan Posted April 11, 2013 at 04:08 PM Report Share Posted April 11, 2013 at 04:08 PM At the last meeting of our organization, one member left the meeting but gave her vote to another member, a proxy vote as I understand it. A quedstion was raised, but the chair said it was OK. RONR AND our by-laws state no proxy voting. The person who then madfe the proxy vote also was allowed to cast her vote - she was also a voting member. The result of vote of the motion was 9 to 7 in favor, and the two "illegal" votes were on the prevailing side. The meeting proceeded and we adjourned. The chair has since said he "missed the infractions and that it was a mistake. We have not had our next meeting, but I want to correct what seems to be a huge mistake. My questions:1) Do I raise a point of order on the illegal votes?2) How are those votes now to be handled?3) Is the entire vote on the motion invalidated? Or do we strike the illegal votes?4) If we strike the votes, do those votes still count in computing the number needed for a majority?Thanks for your help! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Harrison Posted April 11, 2013 at 04:17 PM Report Share Posted April 11, 2013 at 04:17 PM A Point of Order should be raised that proxy voting isn't permitted and the Chair should rule the Point Well Taken. However, unless I am missing something I only see one "illegal" vote (the proxy vote) so the motion would still have been adopted 8-7 and it is valid. What do you consider the 2nd "illegal" vote? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Novosielski Posted April 11, 2013 at 05:41 PM Report Share Posted April 11, 2013 at 05:41 PM I'm also having a problem seeing where the second "illegal" vote is. The person who cast the (presumably improper) proxy vote would still be eligible to cast her own vote, wouildn't she? If not, why not?And if so, then the one proxy vote could not have made a difference in the outcome, and presumably a point of order at this late date would no longer be timely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Guest Posted April 11, 2013 at 05:44 PM Report Share Posted April 11, 2013 at 05:44 PM Thanks for your response. The proxy vote is illegal, but how do we handled the fact that the person who made the proxy vote also voted themselves - they cast 2 votes. Is only one of the votes illegal? If a person casts more than one vote, are they allowed to keep one of their votes and lose the others, or are both of those votes invalid? I ask, because if it had been doen as a ballot, and two ballots were folded together, neither of those votes would count, correct? If so, why the differnece on the hand vote? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Bryan Posted April 11, 2013 at 05:48 PM Report Share Posted April 11, 2013 at 05:48 PM Another question, when the vote is stricken, is it counted in the number to compute the majority, as it would in an illegal ballot vote? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Bryan Posted April 11, 2013 at 05:51 PM Report Share Posted April 11, 2013 at 05:51 PM My apologies for stringing together questions like this, but one last thing: What disciplinary procedures are in place for violations of voting. We plan a motion censuring the actions, but is there something more formal? Thanks again! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh Martin Posted April 11, 2013 at 08:54 PM Report Share Posted April 11, 2013 at 08:54 PM 1) Do I raise a point of order on the illegal votes?Yes.2) How are those votes now to be handled?Strike it altogether. The vote count should be 8-7.3) Is the entire vote on the motion invalidated? Or do we strike the illegal votes?Since the vote can be identified and does not affect the result, striking the proxy vote will be sufficient.4) If we strike the votes, do those votes still count in computing the number needed for a majority?No. This is not comparable to "illegal votes" in a ballot vote. This situation is more analagous to when a vote is cast by someone who is not eligible to vote.The proxy vote is illegal, but how do we handled the fact that the person who made the proxy vote also voted themselves - they cast 2 votes. Is only one of the votes illegal?Yes, the proxy vote.If a person casts more than one vote, are they allowed to keep one of their votes and lose the others, or are both of those votes invalid? I ask, because if it had been doen as a ballot, and two ballots were folded together, neither of those votes would count, correct? If so, why the differnece on the hand vote?But she didn't really vote twice - she voted for herself and also cast a vote for someone else. That's what a proxy is. She's free to vote, but the other member is not.My apologies for stringing together questions like this, but one last thing: What disciplinary procedures are in place for violations of voting. We plan a motion censuring the actions, but is there something more formal?See Ch. XX of RONR if you want something more formal and your Bylaws are silent on discipline. The maximum penalty is expulsion from the society.But are you sure the member wasn't simply ignorant of the rules?And if so, then the one proxy vote could not have made a difference in the outcome, and presumably a point of order at this late date would no longer be timely.Similar to the situation in Official Interpretation 2006-6, I think a Point of Order is appropriate, if only to help ensure that things like this won't happen again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Bryan Posted April 11, 2013 at 08:59 PM Report Share Posted April 11, 2013 at 08:59 PM Thank you SO much for your concise answers they really helped. As for the proxy being a mistake, the person who did it was the president of our assembly when we amended our by-laws to forbid proxy votes, so she would have to have been familar. I will referr to ch XX for some specifics. Thanks again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Mervosh Posted April 11, 2013 at 11:59 PM Report Share Posted April 11, 2013 at 11:59 PM Who are you looking to discipline - the member who left and gave her proxy, the member who cast the vote on her behalf, the chair who said it was ok, or the members who didn't appeal his ruling? All seem complicit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan Posted April 12, 2013 at 04:49 AM Author Report Share Posted April 12, 2013 at 04:49 AM George, thanks for the reply. I suppose I'd like to discipline them all! We had planned a censure motion, but feel that the affront was so egregious that something else needed to be done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jstackpo Posted April 12, 2013 at 07:12 AM Report Share Posted April 12, 2013 at 07:12 AM Anything beyond a "censure" is probably going to require a lot of work - Chapter XX. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sMargaret Posted April 12, 2013 at 03:19 PM Report Share Posted April 12, 2013 at 03:19 PM We had planned a censure motion, but feel that the affront was so egregious that something else needed to be done.If the proxy vote had actually affected the results of the vote, then it would have been truly egregious. As it is, it's a warning not to do this again in the future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh Martin Posted April 12, 2013 at 05:41 PM Report Share Posted April 12, 2013 at 05:41 PM Anything beyond a "censure" is probably going to require a lot of work - Chapter XX.Especially if Bryan follows through with disciplining everyone as he has suggested, which seems to add up to at least sixteen people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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