Eligible to continue to hold office

[Guest Drew]

I am currently an EMS Officer in a volunteer fire company.  Our Annual Elections are held in December.  Now one section of the by-laws reads under qualification of officers "A member shall not be eligible to hold office as a fire line or ambulance officer if that member is a fire line or ambulance officer, or becomes a fire line officer or ambulance in another volunteer company.  In another volunteer fire company that I belong to, I was appointed Acting EMS Captain.  The current EMS Capt is in the military.  Did didn't resign, and the fire company of course can not remove the position from this person.  So since I was qualified, and so as to have someone responsible for billing, supplies, etc, I was made the acting EMS Capt, until the person returns from the military duty.  Now there are members stating that this is a violation of the by-laws.  My opinion on this is (1) I don't have the official title that it is temporary until the person returns from military duty, and (2) that section only applies for the eligibility to be nominated and elected to the position, and not dur during the course of the year.  I am looking for some feedback and opinion here what Rubert Rules (RONR) is on this.

[Chris Harrison]

RONR says that it is up to you all to interpret your own bylaws (see RONR pp. 588-591 for some principles to do so).  If someone attempts to remove you from office you can bring up those points you made to try to convince the others to see things your way.

[Josh Martin]

I am currently an EMS Officer in a volunteer fire company.  Our Annual Elections are held in December.  Now one section of the by-laws reads under qualification of officers "A member shall not be eligible to hold office as a fire line or ambulance officer if that member is a fire line or ambulance officer, or becomes a fire line officer or ambulance in another volunteer company.  In another volunteer fire company that I belong to, I was appointed Acting EMS Captain.  The current EMS Capt is in the military.  Did didn't resign, and the fire company of course can not remove the position from this person.  So since I was qualified, and so as to have someone responsible for billing, supplies, etc, I was made the acting EMS Capt, until the person returns from the military duty.  Now there are members stating that this is a violation of the by-laws.  My opinion on this is (1) I don't have the official title that it is temporary until the person returns from military duty, and (2) that section only applies for the eligibility to be nominated and elected to the position, and not dur during the course of the year.  I am looking for some feedback and opinion here what Rubert Rules (RONR) is on this.

 

There is no such thing as an "Acting" officer position unless your bylaws so provide. So far as RONR is concerned, you're either in the position or you're not. As for your second argument, it will ultimately be up to your organization to interpret its own bylaws, but I personally don't follow your logic that "hold office" only applies to the annual elections. So I'd say in addition to concerns about whether you personally are eligible, it's questionable whether it is even proper to appoint anyone as an "Acting" captain when someone else is in the office.

 

Of course, perhaps there's something else in the bylaws which would shed more light on this.

[Guest Drew]

There is nothing in the bylaws with regard to acting capt.  The current EMS Capt went into the military.  The EMS Capt didn't resign, and due to military laws, the company certinally couldn't remove the title from the person or replace the person.  The company needed someone to temporary serve is that capicity until the EMS Capt returns from military duty.  That was the only thing that the company, its, board, and its lawyers were able to come up with while the EMS Capt is in the military until the person returns. 

[Guest Sara W]

I am currently an EMS Officer in a volunteer fire company.  Our Annual Elections are held in December.  Now one section of the by-laws reads under qualification of officers "A member shall not be eligible to hold office as a fire line or ambulance officer if that member is a fire line or ambulance officer, or becomes a fire line officer or ambulance in another volunteer company.  In another volunteer fire company that I belong to, I was appointed Acting EMS Captain.  The current EMS Capt is in the military.  Did didn't resign, and the fire company of course can not remove the position from this person.  So since I was qualified, and so as to have someone responsible for billing, supplies, etc, I was made the acting EMS Capt, until the person returns from the military duty.  Now there are members stating that this is a violation of the by-laws.  My opinion on this is (1) I don't have the official title that it is temporary until the person returns from military duty, and (2) that section only applies for the eligibility to be nominated and elected to the position, and not dur during the course of the year.  I am looking for some feedback and opinion here what Rubert Rules (RONR) is on this.

I would attend to agree that the section only applies to the nomination & election and not during the course of the year.  But it is up to you and the company to interpret your own bylaws

[Josh Martin]

There is nothing in the bylaws with regard to acting capt.  The current EMS Capt went into the military.  The EMS Capt didn't resign, and due to military laws, the company certinally couldn't remove the title from the person or replace the person.  The company needed someone to temporary serve is that capicity until the EMS Capt returns from military duty.  That was the only thing that the company, its, board, and its lawyers were able to come up with while the EMS Capt is in the military until the person returns. 

 

There is no such thing as an "Acting Captain" and the society cannot appoint someone to temporarily serve in that capacity, unless the society's bylaws provide otherwise.

 

I would attend to agree that the section only applies to the nomination & election and not during the course of the year.  But it is up to you and the company to interpret your own bylaws

 

What am I missing here? What exactly about the language provided suggests to people that it only applies to the time of nominations and election? If it was meant to apply only to that time, why would the "or becomes..." language be necessary?

[Guest Sara w]

What am I missing here? What exactly about the language provided suggests to people that it only applies to the time of nominations and election? If it was meant to apply only to that time, why would the "or becomes..." language be necessary?

If that is how the by laws are read as quoted, there is nothing that suggests that if applies continuously throughout the term. Therefore I still stand by my statement that it applies to nomination and election and not during the course of the term

[Josh Martin]

If that is how the by laws are read as quoted, there is nothing that suggests that if applies continuously throughout the term. Therefore I still stand by my statement that it applies to nomination and election and not during the course of the term

 

The words "hold office" suggest that. A member holds office the entire time that he, well... holds that office, not at just at the time of election.

[Guest Drew]

There is no such thing as an "Acting Captain" and the society cannot appoint someone to temporarily serve in that capacity, unless the society's bylaws provide otherwise.

Then please explain if someone who has an officers position, enters the military to serve out country and does not resign. To my understanding military law would prohibit the society from removing that person from office. If there are no other officers in descending (such as lieutenants) to,fitful the position, then how would this be handled. The company still needs to run, the operations do not stop because the officer is in the military, decisions still need to be made. Someone needs to have to have the title of captain to make decisions, authority, and keep the operations running until the captain returns from the military. The only option the assembly came up with is appointing as acting captain to take on the responsibilities until the captain returns from the military duty.

Since the by laws are silent on how to handle if an officer enters the military, and military law states otherwise the person can not be removed, then how to you put someone in that position temporary until the person returns from the military

[Josh Martin]

Since the by laws are silent on how to handle if an officer enters the military, and military law states otherwise the person can not be removed, then how to you put someone in that position temporary until the person returns from the military

 

So far as RONR is concerned, you don't, unless you amend the bylaws to provide for such a creation.

 

If it is indeed correct that applicable law provides that the member cannot be removed from office, however, then perhaps the law also has an answer to your question. That would be something to consult a lawyer about.

[Guest Sara]

You still haven't answered the damn question mr Martin on drews issue

[Guest Edgar]

You still haven't answered the damn question mr Martin on drews issue

 

Mr. Martin has, in fact, answered the damn question and, unlike your answers, his make sense.

[Josh Martin]

You still haven't answered the damn question mr Martin on drews issue

 

I suppose a recap may be in order. The original question was whether the member in question is eligible to continue serving as "Acting EMS Captain." In my opinion, the answer to that question based upon the facts provided is "No," for the following reasons:

 

• There is no such thing as an "Acting" officer unless the bylaws so provide, and we are told that they do not provide for such a thing.
• The phrase "hold office" logically applies to the entire time that the member holds office, not just to the time of election. Lending further support to this theory is the fact that the bylaws specify that someone who becomes one of the officers in question is ineligible, which suggests that the rule is referring to a longer period of time than the moment of election. I see nothing which would suggest that it applies only to the time of election.
• Even if the rule was interpreted to apply only to the time of election, it seems that the member in question was ineligible at the time he was appointed to the new office, and this constitutes a continuing breach (RONR, 11th ed., pg. 445).

The more recent question was how the society may appoint an acting officer when the bylaws do not create such a position and the society is unable (or unwilling) to remove the officer from his position and the officer is unwilling to resign. The answer is "It cannot, unless it amends the bylaws to create such a position."

 

Of course, it is ultimately up to the organization to interpret its own bylaws, and the society should use RONR, 11th ed., pgs. 588-591 for some Principles of Interpretation. It appears there may also be some questions of applicable law in play (such as whether applicable law prevents the society from removing the current EMS Captain from office).