How do I deternine "those present" without a count?

[Guest netgnat]

Our bylaws state we need x% of those present to elect an official.  We counted votes (yes, no and abstained), but now that I think about it, the number of votes cast may not be the same as the number present (e.g., some adults present didn't vote or others may be children).

 

1.  Do we need to re-vote?

 

2.  Should I interpret 'those present' as "those who voted'?  And if so, should I count the abstained votes as 'present'?

[Gary Novosielski]

"Those present" refers only to people who are entitled to vote, whether or not they do.  You would not count children who are not entitled to vote, even if they were physically present.

 

However, except on a voice vote, it is not proper to vote Yes or No when electing officers.  Votes should be cast for a person, or for some other person. 

 

You do not have the option of voting No and therefore electing nobody.  The only way to vote against a person is to vote for (or write in) someone else. 

 

If your bylaws do not require a ballot vote, and if you have only one nominee for an office, the chair can simply declare the candidate elected by acclamation.  Even if your bylaws do not require a ballot vote, you should use a ballot for contested elections.

[jstackpo]

Gary spoke to your "yes/No" election vote sins, but if you really did count the "abstentions" (you normally wouldn't do so) wouldn't the total of Yes votes, No votes and "abstain" votes be the number present that you are looking for?

 

Or am I missing something?

[Rev Ed]

The easiest way to determine this would be to take attendance as people arrive.  Then you have a headcount for the number of members present.

 

The only ways, by ballot, to not elect an official would be to either a) vote for someone else (whether or not that person was nominated is not an issue as write-in votes are allowed unless otherwise specified), or abstain - a member can always turn in a blank ballot.

 

As your organization requires an election based on those present, not on votes cast, to abstain would have the same effect as voting against a candidate.   For example, with 45 members present, 23 have to vote for a candidate.  If more than 22 members abstain then the person is not elected.

[Josh Martin]

Our bylaws state we need x% of those present to elect an official.  We counted votes (yes, no and abstained), but now that I think about it, the number of votes cast may not be the same as the number present (e.g., some adults present didn't vote or others may be children).

 

This is absolutely correct. When an assembly's rules require a vote of the members present, a count of the members present must be taken immediately prior to taking the vote.

 

As noted, it's also not proper to vote "yes" or "no" in an election.

 

1.  Do we need to re-vote?

 

No. It's too late to fix this mistake now. See Official Interpretation 2006-18. Just get it right next time.

 

2.  Should I interpret 'those present' as "those who voted'?

 

No. The rule should be amended so that is the case, but in the meantime, you need to follow the rule as it is written.

 

And if so, should I count the abstained votes as 'present'?

 

In the future, you should actually count the number of members present. For this particular vote, yes, it would have been reasonable to count the abstentions as members present, and you'd at least have been closer to the truth.

 

Presumably, however, you have already declared the result of this vote, and that declaration stands, even if it was wrong. A Point of Order would have had to be raised at the time.

 

Gary spoke to your "yes/No" election vote sins, but if you really did count the "abstentions" (you normally wouldn't do so) wouldn't the total of Yes votes, No votes and "abstain" votes be the number present that you are looking for?

 

As I understand the facts, the chair asked for abstentions and counted those. Some members, however, may have remained silent, and it seems that those members were not counted.

 

The easiest way to determine this would be to take attendance as people arrive.  Then you have a headcount for the number of members present.

 

No, you don't. Members often come and go during a meeting. When a vote is based on the number of members present, a count must be taken immediately prior to the vote.

 

The only ways, by ballot, to not elect an official would be to either a) vote for someone else (whether or not that person was nominated is not an issue as write-in votes are allowed unless otherwise specified), or abstain - a member can always turn in a blank ballot.

 

As your organization requires an election based on those present, not on votes cast, to abstain would have the same effect as voting against a candidate.   For example, with 45 members present, 23 have to vote for a candidate.  If more than 22 members abstain then the person is not elected.

 

Abstaining would not prevent the official from being elected. The only way to not elect an official is to vote for someone else.

 

It is correct that when the vote is based on the number of members present, abstentions may prevent a candidate from being elected (and so such a voting requirement is probably a bad idea), but all this will accomplish is to waste the assembly's time. If no one is elected, the assembly will continue voting until someone is elected. So in the long run, the only way not to elect an official is still to vote for someone else.

[Guest netgnat]

Thank you all who replied.  What a great forum!

 

I think I have my answer, which is for now there is nothing I can do since the vote's been certified.  Since we didn't have a head count just prior to the vote, our closest estimate would be the yes, no, and abstain votes (which I know are not counted, but can affect the outcome since the vote is based on those present and they would be included in that count).

 

FYI, we only had one person on the ballot, and our bylaws called for a ballot vote.

 

Thanks again!

[Josh Martin]

FYI, we only had one person on the ballot, and our bylaws called for a ballot vote.

 

Okay. For future reference, even in such a case, members don't vote "yes" or "no." They can vote for the person on the ballot, they can write-in the name of someone else, or they can abstain.

[Rev Ed]

Abstaining would not prevent the official from being elected. The only way to not elect an official is to vote for someone else.

 

Josh, you did not read my post properly.  As the election in question is based on a majority of those present, then an abstention would have the same effect of stopping a member from being elected.  If there are 50 people present at a meeting then the winning candidate MUST receive 26 votes.  So if someone abstains, it would have the same effect as voting against the candidate and prevent election.

[Gary Novosielski]

Gary spoke to your "yes/No" election vote sins, but if you really did count the "abstentions" (you normally wouldn't do so) wouldn't the total of Yes votes, No votes and "abstain" votes be the number present that you are looking for?

 

Or am I missing something?

Well, a person who does not answer a call for "abstentions" has abstained just as surely as one who does.  A person who does not turn in any ballot at all has abstained just as surely as one who turns in a blank ballot, or who writes "Abstain" on the ballot.

 

Since it is possible to abstain by doing nothing, the only real way of telling how many people are in the room is to count the number of people in the room.  If you had a reliable way of counting them as they entered, and a way of un-counting them if they step out, you might be able to use that, but this is an important number (in this case) so approximations won't do.

 

The best thing would be to remove that requirement from your bylaws, and use the rule in RONR, which requires a majority (of those present and voting), at which point abstentions won't matter, and the number in the room won't matter as long as it is at least a quorum.

[Josh Martin]

Josh, you did not read my post properly.  As the election in question is based on a majority of those present, then an abstention would have the same effect of stopping a member from being elected.  If there are 50 people present at a meeting then the winning candidate MUST receive 26 votes.  So if someone abstains, it would have the same effect as voting against the candidate and prevent election.

 

Based on additional information we have received from the original poster in his other thread, yes, this does seem to be correct for the OP's organization.