Bylaws and voting in a House of Delegates

[rtpftguy]

I posted a more complicated version of this question in the advanced discussion, but am not sure I know the answer yet, so I'd like to make it simpler here.

Our professional association has a House of Delegates composed of 1-3 members from each Chartered Affiliate of the Association, or about 100 members.  There are no other governing documents higher than the bylaws that address the issue.

 

Regarding voting in the House, the bylaws state: 

 

"SECTION 6. VOTING

a. Each delegation shall have one (1) vote for each Active Member within their Chartered Affiliate as submitted by the Executive Office and certified by the House of Delegates Credentials Committee."

 

This is the same as a roll call vote as described in RONR §45, p. 422, ll.16-29.

 

RONR §56,, p. 589, ll. 34-35 to p. 590, ll. 1-5 states (regarding principles of interpretation of bylaws):  

 

"4) If the bylaws authorize certain things specifically, other things of the same class are thereby prohibited.  There is a presumption that nothing has been placed in the bylaws without some reason for it.  There can be no valid reason for authorizing certain things to be done that can clearly be done without the authorization of the bylaws, unless the intent is to specify this things of the same class that may be done, all others being prohibited."

 

Questions:

1.  Are methods of voting considered a "class [of things] that may be done?" (Underline emphasis is mine).

2.  May any other method of voting occur without being mentioned in the bylaws and given the principle of interpretation above?

3.  If the answer to #2 is "yes," what authorizes that method of voting?

 

Thank you!

[jstackpo]

First the standard disclaimer:  We don't do bylaw interpretation here.

 

That being said, it isn't clear to me why you consider the votes "carried" by each delegation, that number of votes being (evidently) the number of members in each affiliate, as equivalent to a roll call vote.  It may a bit of a chore to poll each delegation to find out how many votes are being cast "Aye" or "No" for a particular motion (which is indeed a bit like a roll call vote except I see no requirement to identify which delegation voted in such and such a way - the totals of the votes are all that matters) but the counting could be done with (properly programmed) electronic voting devices.  Or paper ballots with the number of votes on each ballot specified.

 

So in answer to your questions:

 

1.  No, since your delegation voting strength says nothing about how the votes are cast or counted.

 

2.  Sure  --  same reason.

 

3.  The membership at the convention determines by majority vote which (of many possibilities) are to be used.   Which gets tricky because the weighted votes, I presume, have to be used to determine how the votes are cast and counted.  Carts and horses.

 

Are you SURE that EVERY vote has to take account of the number of votes carried by each delegation?  Sounds cumbersome in the extreme unless it is all done electronically.

 

And now you see why we don't (usually) dip into bylaw interpretation (unless a question seems particularly interesting). 

[Timothy]

Questions:

1.  Are methods of voting considered a "class [of things] that may be done?" (Underline emphasis is mine).

2.  May any other method of voting occur without being mentioned in the bylaws and given the principle of interpretation above?

3.  If the answer to #2 is "yes," what authorizes that method of voting?

 

I'll leave it to you to decide if your bylaws specify a roll call vote without specifying any other form of voting, but in answer to your questions:

 

1. Yes, the different types of voting methods are all within the same class. Here's hint, when you can refer to something collectively as "types" or "methods" they fall within the same class.

2. Yes, sort of, but only if instead of being specific your bylaws mention a class in a general form.

3. If, for example, the bylaws stated "a roll call vote shall be taken, unless another method is specified," one interpretation might be that the assembly could vote to use any of the other forms of voting. But the principle of interpretation is that if the bylaws say "a roll call vote shall be taken" without allowing for another form of voting then you must take a roll call vote. You shouldn't arbitrarily choose some other method of voting.

[rtpftguy]

JD and Timothy,

 

Thank you for your replies.  

 

1.  Regarding what is or isn't a roll call vote,  the only type of vote mentioned in RONR that corresponds to weighted votes by delegations is identified as a roll call vote on the page cited.  This also has been the practice in the HOD and is the only way (we do not have electronic voting) I'm familiar with for assigning to the vote of each delegation "one (1) vote for each Active member. . .".   A discussion of that is on the Advanced Forum; I don't want to go into methods here.

 

2.  Yes, it would be very cumbersome to have to do this on every vote and for elections, for instance, it is inconsistent with protecting anonymity.  I acknowledge that.  However, I am keeping my focus very narrow here for a reason.  If that is the only method listed in the bylaws, is it the only method we may use?

 

 

 

2. Yes, sort of, but only if instead of being specific your bylaws mention a class in a general form.

 

You may see from my original post that they do not.

 

 

But the principle of interpretation is that if the bylaws say "a roll call vote shall be taken" without allowing for another form of voting then you must take a roll call vote. You shouldn't arbitrarily choose some other method of voting.

 

I agree with this, Timothy.

 

I am trying to be sure of my stand on this (I will be the Parliamentarian in July).  I believe an amendment to the bylaws is in order to expand on the allowable methods of voting, but can only work through our Speaker toward that goal.  I want to give her the best advice I can, so am asking the opinion of more experienced Parliamentarians.

 

I appreciate that this forum isn't meant to interpret bylaws but that you both have chosen to answer anyway. Does that mean this was interesting?  Hope so!

[Timothy]

Now I'm beginning to understand your question a little better. I assumed that because you said that this is a roll call vote that that is how the organization interprets its bylaws. However, in reading the bylaw, I don't see wording that mentions a specific form of voting. While some forms of voting would make it impossible to do weighted voting, there are forms of voting other than roll call voting that can also be used for weighted voting. Ballot voting could be used, for example, by giving each delegate a ballot for each person they represent. Depending on how many people they represent, it might make more sense to give them a ballot for each 10, 100, or 1000 people they represent, but that would likely require something to that effect in the bylaws. Another way ballot voting might be handled is by giving the delegates ballots with the number of people they represent printed on them. Some secrecy might be lost by doing this. Also, there is the question of whether a delegate is allowed to split the votes between candidates. If so, he would need to write how he is splitting the votes on the ballot.

[Josh Martin]

1.  Regarding what is or isn't a roll call vote,  the only type of vote mentioned in RONR that corresponds to weighted votes by delegations is identified as a roll call vote on the page cited.  This also has been the practice in the HOD and is the only way (we do not have electronic voting)

 

It is possible to do weighted votes with other forms of voting, but it tends to be rather complicated. HOAs and stock corporations often use weighted voting and often vote by ballot. I understand that it usually involves some fancy software and barcodes printed on the ballots and such.

 

2.  Yes, it would be very cumbersome to have to do this on every vote and for elections, for instance, it is inconsistent with protecting anonymity.  I acknowledge that.  However, I am keeping my focus very narrow here for a reason.  If that is the only method listed in the bylaws, is it the only method we may use?

 

If your bylaws specify that "a. Each delegation shall have one (1) vote for each Active Member within their Chartered Affiliate as submitted by the Executive Office and certified by the House of Delegates Credentials Committee," and your bylaws say nothing else on the subject, then this must be done for all votes.

 

Most conventions avoid this problem by permitting the constituent organizations to send up to a certain number of delegates to the convention, with each delegate having one vote, rather than giving a certain number of votes to the delegation as a whole. That might be something to consider for the future.