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A vote to deny fails, is it then automatic approval


Guest ross

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A board of adjustments meeting to look at a variance, the motion was made to deny the variance ( yes a bad idea). 2 no votes 2 yes and 1 obstain so motion to deny fails, so is that approval for the variance?? No other motions occured other than motions to adjurn

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A board of adjustments meeting to look at a variance, the motion was made to deny the variance ( yes a bad idea). 2 no votes 2 yes and 1 obstain so motion to deny fails, so is that approval for the variance?? No other motions occured other than motions to adjurn

 

No.

 

"It is preferable to avoid a motion containing a negative statement even in cases where the effect of the motion is to propose that something be done, since members may become confused as to the effect of voting for or against such a motion. Rather than moving, for example, that the association go on record as "not in favor of the proposed public bond issue," it should be moved that the association "oppose" or "declare its opposition to" the bond issue. In this connection, it should be noted that voting down a motion or resolution that would express a particular opinion is not the same as adopting a motion expressing the opposite opinion, since—if the motion is voted down—neither opinion has been expressed. A member may be in complete agreement with the views contained in such a resolution yet feel that his organization should not speak out on the matter, and he might therefore vote against the resolution."  RONR (11th ed.), p. 105

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I've sometimes thought that such boards might have an obligation to affirmatively approve or affirmatively deny a request for a variance. If that's the case (and I'm going to try to ask some knowledgeable about it today), the board would presumably have a sense of which way the voting would go and then frame the motion (i.e. either to approve or deny) so that it would be adopted. Of course this goes beyond anything RONR says.

 

And, of course a tie vote complicates this theory (of mine) since it appears the result would be the same (a tie) no matter how the motion was worded. So feel free to disregard this "thinking out loud".

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I am of the opinion that a failed motion to deny is not the same as a motion to approve. However, as Edgar Guest suggested, there are cases where a decision must be made one way or the other. If the motion were worded so as to ask whether the variance should be approved, I see no problem with saying that it was denied, since taking no action is the same as it being denied.

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I am of the opinion that a failed motion to deny is not the same as a motion to approve. However, as Edgar Guest suggested, there are cases where a decision must be made one way or the other. If the motion were worded so as to ask whether the variance should be approved, I see no problem with saying that it was denied, since taking no action is the same as it being denied.

 

I feel the same way - but not approving a motion to deny something, it does not mean that the group supports the issue as no motion to approve the issue has been passed.  And I hope Guest Edgar gets the additional information, I hope it helps clarify the issue. 

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Edger if this helps- In this case it is a County variance so Minnesota Statute 394.21-37 is mentioned in the county ordinance, and no mention of manditory answer to affirm or deny the request found anyplace in the ordinance under powers , procedure, or findings.

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Edger if this helps- In this case it is a County variance so Minnesota Statute 394.21-37 is mentioned in the county ordinance, and no mention of manditory answer to affirm or deny the request found anyplace in the ordinance under powers , procedure, or findings.

 

Well, it helps only in the sense that it confirms the fact that your answer is not likely to be found in RONR, other than the previously noted observations that defeating a motion to deny is not the same as adopting a motion to approve.

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A board of adjustments meeting to look at a variance, the motion was made to deny the variance ( yes a bad idea). 2 no votes 2 yes and 1 obstain so motion to deny fails, so is that approval for the variance?? No other motions occured other than motions to adjurn

 

Yes, a bad idea, and now you see why.

 

But no, it certainly does not mean they accepted it.   This is why negative motions aren't allowed in the first place--approving them and defeating them has the same result--nothing happens.

 

The proper procedure is always to vote on a motion to accept a givenvariance, even if most or all of the board is clearly opposed. 

 

Then, on the same 2-2 vote, the motion to accept fails, and the variance has been denied, without ambiguity.

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Edger if this helps- In this case it is a County variance so Minnesota Statute 394.21-37 is mentioned in the county ordinance, and no mention of manditory answer to affirm or deny the request found anyplace in the ordinance under powers , procedure, or findings.

 

I suspect you may need a lawyer more than a parliamentarian.

 

The first response said it all so far as RONR is concerned, but as Edgar and Dan note, that may not be the last word in this board.

 

 If the motion were worded so as to ask whether the variance should be approved, I see no problem with saying that it was denied, since taking no action is the same as it being denied.

 

The proper procedure is always to vote on a motion to accept a givenvariance, even if most or all of the board is clearly opposed. 

 

Then, on the same 2-2 vote, the motion to accept fails, and the variance has been denied, without ambiguity.

 

This is how it works under RONR, but I share Edgar's concerns in Post #3. It is my understanding that in some organizations (particularly the sort that do things like "approving variances"), defeating a motion to approve and adopting a motion to deny are not the same thing. No, it doesn't make any sense to me either.

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