To remove an item from minutes

[Guest Very Confused]

We had a member of a board propose a motion that never should have have been brought up in a meeting, as it was petty and spitefull and unnecessary. This motion was recorded in the minutes. Since then the two members involved in the motion have been removed from the board for conduct unbecoming of their position. How would we go and remove the motion from the official mins as it should never have been recorded or done in the first place? This issue if even truely concidered should have been in camera and no vote was taken on the issue at the time and was incorrectly recorded.

[Guest Zev]

The motion for this type of thing is called Rescind and Expunge from the Minutes, found on page 310 of RONR/11th. If however the motion was only incorrectly recorded, as versus being deemed offensive, then the motion to Amend Something Previously Adopted is what is needed.

[Edgar Guest]

There is no way to remove the allegedly offensive text from the approved minutes. Even if the (rare) motion to Rescind and Expunge is adopted, a line will be drawn through the text in question but it will still be readable.

[Richard Brown]

There is no way to remove the allegedly offensive text from the approved minutes. Even if the (rare) motion to Rescind and Expunge is adopted, a line will be drawn through the text in question. It will still be readable.

 

The key in Mr. Guest's quote being to remove the offensive text from approved minutes.  The original post doesn't make it clear that those minutes were ever approved, but I'm assuming they were.   The original post also doesn't make clear whether the offensive motion was adopted.   If it was not adopted, there is nothing to rescind.    If they have not yet been approved, the assembly can correct the minutes by having the objectionable content removed.  If the minutes have been approved but incorrectly state that the motion was adopted, the minutes can of course be corrected to show that the motion failed.  And if the motion was never seconded, it should not even be recorded in the minutes at all.

 

I also point out that the motion Mr. Guest is suggesting be used is a motion to rescind and expunge from the minutes.  If the objectionable motion that the original poster is referring to was not adopted, there is nothing to rescind.  This would then be a case of correcting the minutes which can be done at any time, although with different vote requirements depending on when the correction was made and whether previous notice was given if it is done after the minutes have been approved.

 

Finally, being aware of the statement in RONR that an action properly recorded in the minutes is never actually removed from the minutes,  at least when using the motion to "rescind and expunge from the minutes", I wonder if the assembly has another option.   Since the assembly is in charge of its own affairs and is the ultimate arbiter (other than the courts) of what its rules say, mean and allow, can it in essence suspend the rule in RONR by a 2/3 vote (or by a vote of a majority of the membership)  and order that the objectionable language actually be removed from the minutes, rather than just drawing a line through it with the notation that it was "ordered expunged"?  If an objection is raised in the form of a point of order that such action is not permitted under RONR, what should be done with the minutes if the chair rules that the point of order is not well taken or if he rules that it is well taken but the assembly overrules his decision and the assembly orders that the language be removed?

 

Regardless, it seems to me that the assembly can do as suggested on page 310 of RONR at lines 224 - 227, and "adopt a resolution condemning the action which has been ordered rescinded", or as may be more appropriate in the instant case, a resolution condemning the motion which was proposed or which was improperly recorded in the minutes.  I think this may be the better option, at least if the original "bad" motion was never adopted and there is nothing to rescind.

[Edgar Guest]

I also point out that the motion Mr. Guest is suggesting be used is a motion . . .

 

I'm not suggesting it be used. In fact, I'd probably say it shouldn't be used (since it's likely to be misused). 

 

I wonder if the assembly has another option.   Since the assembly is in charge of its own affairs and is the ultimate arbiter (other than the courts) of what its rules say, mean and allow, can it in essence suspend the rule in RONR by a 2/3 vote (or by a vote of a majority of the membership)  and order that the objectionable language actually be removed from the minutes, rather than just drawing a line through it with the notation that it was "ordered expunged"?

Approved minutes are, essentially, "carved in stone". An assembly is free to can violate the rules but there's no legitimate way to do so.

[Richard Brown]

 

Approved minutes are, essentially, "carved in stone".

 

Oh?  Despite the language in RONR on page 475 at lines18 - 24 which says: "If the existence of an error or material omission in the minutes becomes reasonably established after their approval -- even many years later -- the minutes can then be corrected by means of the motion to Amend Something Previously Adopted. . . ."?

[Dan Honemann]

And if the motion was never seconded, it should not even be recorded in the minutes at all.

 

The authorship team is of the opinion that if a main motion is made during a meeting, it should be recorded in the minutes of that meeting (RONR Off. Interp. 2006-7; see also RONR, 11th ed., p. 469, ll. 10-16).

[Edgar Guest]

Oh?  Despite the language in RONR on page 475 at lines18 - 24 which says: "If the existence of an error or material omission in the minutes becomes reasonably established after their approval -- even many years later -- the minutes can then be corrected by means of the motion to Amend Something Previously Adopted. . . ."?

 

The correction is recorded in the minutes of the meeting at which the correction was adopted and a note to that effect can be placed in the margin of the minutes where the original text is recorded. The original text remains unaltered.

[Dan Honemann]

Oh?  Despite the language in RONR on page 475 at lines18 - 24 which says: "If the existence of an error or material omission in the minutes becomes reasonably established after their approval -- even many years later -- the minutes can then be corrected by means of the motion to Amend Something Previously Adopted. . . ."?

 

Yes, but if the motion to amend the previously adopted minutes is adopted, a marginal notation to that effect (referring to the minutes of the meeting at which the motion to amend the previously adopted minutes was adopted) may be made in the minutes which were amended, but no change is made in the body of those minutes.

[Richard Brown]

The authorship team is of the opinion that if a main motion is made during a meeting, it should be recorded in the minutes of that meeting (RONR Off. Interp. 2006-7; see also RONR, 11th ed., p. 469, ll. 10-16).

 

Mr. Honemann is correct.  I stand corrected and thank him for the correction. 

[Josh Martin]

We had a member of a board propose a motion that never should have have been brought up in a meeting, as it was petty and spitefull and unnecessary. This motion was recorded in the minutes. Since then the two members involved in the motion have been removed from the board for conduct unbecoming of their position. How would we go and remove the motion from the official mins as it should never have been recorded or done in the first place? This issue if even truely concidered should have been in camera and no vote was taken on the issue at the time and was incorrectly recorded.

 

Concurring with the previous responses, I would add that I see no reason to think, based on the facts provided, that the motion was "incorrectly recorded." The motion should have quite possibly been ruled out of order, but it is nonetheless recorded in the minutes.

 

As noted, the motion cannot be removed from the minutes. It is an accurate recording of what happened (whether it should have happened is immaterial). The best you can accomplish is to order the motion expunged from the minutes. If this motion is adopted, a line will be struck through the text of the motion, but the motion must still be legible. The minutes will also note "Ordered Expunged." This will not remove the motion from the minutes, but it will make the assembly's distaste for the motion quite clear. A motion to expunge material requires a vote of a majority of the entire membership for adoption.

 

This motion is generally known as Rescind and Expunge from the Minutes, but "Rescind" applies only to an adopted motion. I take it that this motion was not adopted. Although the text does not specifically address such a case, I believe the assembly can still order the motion to be expunged.

[Edgar Guest]

This motion is generally known as Rescind and Expunge from the Minutes, but "Rescind" applies only to an adopted motion. I take it that this motion was not adopted. Although the text does not specifically address such a case, I believe the assembly can still order the motion to be expunged.

 

A subject for the Advanced Discussion forum? Is there a motion to Expunge apart from the motion to Rescind and Expunge? Is it only motions that can be expunged or can any text in approved minutes be expunged?

[Josh Martin]

A subject for the Advanced Discussion forum? Is there a motion to Expunge apart from the motion to Rescind and Expunge? Is it only motions that can be expunged or can any text in approved minutes be expunged?

 

Yes, I think that is a good idea. A search of "expunge" shows inconsistent answers on this topic in the past.