bobby101 Posted September 6, 2014 at 09:49 PM Report Share Posted September 6, 2014 at 09:49 PM Our Board took action against me last year and sanctioned me for a 2 week suspension. The charges brought against me culminated in the Board's presenting me with an agreement stating, " I, my name, acknowledge that the Board and I have made statements and acted on the basis of inadvertent and unintentional oversights leading to misunderstandings. I will cease my activities with regard to the topics of the charge, particularly those mentioned as matters in dispute. The Board in turn will follow the Bylaws of the club now and in the future. Going forward I may bring issues to the Board's attention, and the Board will address those issues. After receiving a response, although I may not agree with the content, I will no longer pursue the issue." If I accepted this offer and signed the statement, the proposed sanctions (which at that time also included probation until February 28, 2014) the proposed sanctions would have been annulled. Since the statement was clearly untrue, I did not sign it. I served the 2 week suspension and the board subsequently did away with the probation requirement. Probation was something that this board invented as a penalty; it's not mentioned in our by-laws. I mentioned in previous postings that this Board had violated our by-laws in three specific areas and refused to address these areas. Plainly put, the board broke the by-laws and I wound up getting suspended for defending the rights of 3 members that the board had it in for! That's some general background for my question as posed above. Does this particular section give me or the presiding officer at our upcoming annual membership meeting the ability/right to raise this point during the membership meeting and present it to the membership for their review, consideration, and vote to support the board or revoke their decision? And, if the answer is yes to raising the issue, what's the proper process for doing it. Thank you. Bob Simons Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Lages Posted September 7, 2014 at 12:23 AM Report Share Posted September 7, 2014 at 12:23 AM I served the 2 week suspension and the board subsequently did away with the probation requirement. Probation was something that this board invented as a penalty; it's not mentioned in our by-laws. It seems to me that, based on this sentence, it's too late to do anything about the suspension and the probation, since those actions have been fully carried out. I suppose the membership could adopt a motion censuring the board for their actions against you. That would require a majority vote for approval. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Brown Posted September 7, 2014 at 12:24 AM Report Share Posted September 7, 2014 at 12:24 AM Does this particular section give me or the presiding officer at our upcoming annual membership meeting the ability/right to raise this point during the membership meeting and present it to the membership for their review, consideration, and vote to support the board or revoke their decision? And, if the answer is yes to raising the issue, what's the proper process for doing it. Thank you. Bob Simons What particular section are your referring to? A section in RONR or something else? If the board's actions were not authorized by the bylaws, this might constitute a continuing breach of the sort that you can raise a point of order about at any time. See "Point of Order", pages 247 - 255, particularly page 251. Be prepared for the chair to rule against you and to have to appeal the decision of the chair to the assembly. Edited to add: I agree with Mr. Lages, but I believe you can also make a motion to the assembly to "rescind and expunge from the minutes" the action of the Board, provided that the assembly has that power. See page 310. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timothy Posted September 7, 2014 at 12:29 AM Report Share Posted September 7, 2014 at 12:29 AM I don't see the value of revoking something if the punishment has been served, but even so, rescind/amend something previously adopted would not apply since the society hasn't adopted anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timothy Posted September 7, 2014 at 12:34 AM Report Share Posted September 7, 2014 at 12:34 AM What particular section are your referring to? A section in RONR or something else? If the board's actions were not authorized by the bylaws, this might constitute a continuing breach of the sort that you can raise a point of order about at any time. See "Point of Order", pages 247 - 255, particularly page 251. Be prepared for the chair to rule against you and to have to appeal the decision of the chair to the assembly. Edited to add: I agree with Mr. Lages, but I believe you can also make a motion to the assembly to "rescind and expunge from the minutes" the action of the Board, provided that the assembly has that power. See page 310.A point of order would not be proper in this case because though the action violated the bylaws, we are beyond the continuance of the breach. (The punishment has been served.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Brown Posted September 7, 2014 at 12:37 AM Report Share Posted September 7, 2014 at 12:37 AM I don't see the value of revoking something if the punishment has been served, but even so, rescind/amend something previously adopted would not apply since the society hasn't adopted anything. Can't the assembly rescind actions of the Board if the Board is subservient to the Assembly as per Official Interpretation 2006-13?http://www.robertsrules.com/interp_list.html#2006_13 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Brown Posted September 7, 2014 at 12:54 AM Report Share Posted September 7, 2014 at 12:54 AM In reading further, I agree that it might be too late to rescind the punishment ordered since it has already been served. (Page 308. However, in this case, the object is not really to "undo" the punishment, but to clear his name. The motion to censure the board or certain board members as Mr. Lages suggested may be the best way to accomplish that. I'm looking at this pretty much as I would someone who has been wrongfully convicted of a crime, but has already served the sentence. He still appeals because he wants to clear his name. I'm trying to think of the best way to accomplish that. At the moment, the motion of censure seems like the best way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobby101 Posted September 7, 2014 at 01:58 AM Author Report Share Posted September 7, 2014 at 01:58 AM Responding to the first question on Section 35. I made a bad assumption that this group would know I was referring to Section 35 of RONR, (11th ed.) page 305 ff. Yes, I realize that I've already served the sentence and that can't be undone. In my serving the sentence, I was trying to show that I follow the by-laws, however misguided the rationale and intentions of the board. At risk of hearing that I've already posted this issue, you should be aware that the board who sanctioned me is the one whom I've charged with violating the by-laws. And they sit as judge and jury on their behavior. In each of the three violations I cited, it was a clear case of use of power and position by the board to punish members. I had hoped that when we had our most recent membership meeting and election (last October) and elected several new Officers and Directors we might be able to address and remedy the by-laws to minimize the possibility of these kinds of actions in the future. I and others worked hard to get people elected to the board who we felt would address these issues. I was personally told by our presidential nominee, who was later elected, that his first action in office would be to rescind my sanction. 12 months later, this has not happened. And when I raised the question to him this past week, he said he had not done anything and asked me if I wanted him to do something. Like you, I agreed that I had served my sentence and wondered what he had in mind when he made the statement a year ago and why he hadn't informed me that he had decided not to do anything in this regard. My raising the point that started this discussion is whether this part of Robert's Rules is appropriately pertinent here and can be raised at our upcoming membership meeting. And, yes I want my name cleared. The lies and misstatements about me and my motivations are reprehensible but the way the boards involved chose to handle things. And, I've proposed several by-laws changes for board consideration-all aimed at avoiding a recurrence of these problems- but am not too optimistic that the board will recommend to the membership for consideration and a vote at our upcoming membership meeting. Yes, our by-laws state that the board must recommend by-law changes to the membership. Does anyone address the major issue I've identified here that the punishments imposed by the board(s) in each case were violations of our by-laws by the board(s) and involved depriving the 3 individuals with rights guaranteed by our by-laws? I have been working this situation for more than 2 years now and trying to address these issues in the fairest and most open way possible. I, to this point, have not been successful and am looking for your views as to what options may be available to me. I am fighting for the rights of 3 members, including myself, against board(s) that did not respond to my questions and chose, instead, to attack me. I'd appreciate your thoughts. Mr. Simons Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timothy Posted September 7, 2014 at 02:13 AM Report Share Posted September 7, 2014 at 02:13 AM Can't the assembly rescind actions of the Board if the Board is subservient to the Assembly as per Official Interpretation 2006-13?http://www.robertsrules.com/interp_list.html#2006_13 That implies that the action of the Board is proper. If it is, then the society could rescind the action, but since the assumption is that the action is improper, the motion to rescind along with the 2/3 vote, etc. would not be required. A motion that "clears his name" could be made, but only a majority would be required for it to be adopted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shmuel Gerber Posted September 7, 2014 at 04:29 AM Report Share Posted September 7, 2014 at 04:29 AM Responding to the first question on Section 35. I made a bad assumption that this group would know I was referring to Section 35 of RONR, (11th ed.) page 305 ff. No, that is a perfectly valid assumption. The bad assumption is that this group always reads the name of the topic as part of the question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh Martin Posted September 8, 2014 at 01:16 AM Report Share Posted September 8, 2014 at 01:16 AM My raising the point that started this discussion is whether this part of Robert's Rules is appropriately pertinent here and can be raised at our upcoming membership meeting. And, yes I want my name cleared. The lies and misstatements about me and my motivations are reprehensible but the way the boards involved chose to handle things. No, Section 35 is not applicable to this situation. Since the motion has been fully carried out, it may not be rescinded or amended. If the primary goal is to clear your name, I would think the most appropriate course of action at this point is for the assembly to adopt a motion which states that you were wrongfully accused and convicted. If such a motion is adopted, then I think the record will clearly show that you are exonerated in the eyes of the society. Does anyone address the major issue I've identified here that the punishments imposed by the board(s) in each case were violations of our by-laws by the board(s) and involved depriving the 3 individuals with rights guaranteed by our by-laws? I have been working this situation for more than 2 years now and trying to address these issues in the fairest and most open way possible. I, to this point, have not been successful and am looking for your views as to what options may be available to me. I am fighting for the rights of 3 members, including myself, against board(s) that did not respond to my questions and chose, instead, to attack me. Are these punishments also fully resolved, or are they ongoing? If the latter, I believe the most appropriate course of action, based on what you say, would be to raise a Point of Order regarding this issue, followed by an Appeal if necessary. If these punishments are also fully resolved, I'd follow the same strategy as your own situation. Again, I do not think Section 35 is applicable. Rescind or Amend Something Previously Adopted is not the appropriate motion if the action which was taken is null and void. Now, in addition to the above, it may be desirable to punish the board members for these actions. A motion to censure the board or condemn its actions would be in order. Your bylaws seem to have customized rules on discipline, so it seems you'll need to look there for more severe options. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobby101 Posted September 8, 2014 at 11:57 AM Author Report Share Posted September 8, 2014 at 11:57 AM Josh: To your last paragraph, I did not have and still do not have any desire to punish the board for their actions. My only goal through this entire period was that the individuals who were harmed by the board's illegal actions be given their rights that are part of our by-laws. And, that the board would recognize and acknowledge that they violated the by-laws and harmed the three individuals against whom they took these actions. And, PERHAPS they might even consider apologizing for their actions. From the board's reactions over this two year period, I think an apology to be highly unlikely. This activity has become, as you might expect, highly personalized. To your point in your next to last paragraph: Are your referring to the action(s) (let's call it/them "A") that the board took which was/were in violation of the by-laws and therefore null and void? Or some other action? If you're referring to that action "A" as being null and void- but that has already been carried out and resulted in suspension in two cases- I just don't follow. Please help me with it. And, in the other case, where the president overrode a majority vote by the board and decided to not submit a member's name for consideration for Honorary Membership by our membership (as the by-laws call for), I have already taken action and re-submitted his name for consideration. When this new letter was brought to our new board for their information, the board member presenting it referred to our by-laws which state it's a membership responsibility to determine a person's qualifications for this honor. Josh, you refer to our by-laws. In a previous posting, I cited where our by-laws could be accessed if members were interested. Have you read them? Eager to hear from you and others. Mr. Simons (Bob) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timothy Posted September 8, 2014 at 02:06 PM Report Share Posted September 8, 2014 at 02:06 PM I have already taken action and re-submitted his name for consideration. When this new letter was brought to our new board for their information, the board member presenting it referred to our by-laws which state it's a membership responsibility to determine a person's qualifications for this honor. Josh, you refer to our by-laws. In a previous posting, I cited where our by-laws could be accessed if members were interested. Have you read them? Eager to hear from you and others. Mr. Simons (Bob) I, for one, have no intention of reading your bylaws. If you say that an action is contrary to your bylaws, then I will assume that it is. Based on that, it can be said that it is not necessary to rescind the motion because that motion is null and void. A point of order is the mechanism by which one would bring that to the official attention of the society. But if the motion has been completely carried out, then it is too late for a point of order. You can, however, move forward, as it appears you are doing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh Martin Posted September 9, 2014 at 12:40 AM Report Share Posted September 9, 2014 at 12:40 AM Josh: To your last paragraph, I did not have and still do not have any desire to punish the board for their actions. My only goal through this entire period was that the individuals who were harmed by the board's illegal actions be given their rights that are part of our by-laws. And, that the board would recognize and acknowledge that they violated the by-laws and harmed the three individuals against whom they took these actions. And, PERHAPS they might even consider apologizing for their actions. From the board's reactions over this two year period, I think an apology to be highly unlikely. This activity has become, as you might expect, highly personalized. To your point in your next to last paragraph: Are your referring to the action(s) (let's call it/them "A") that the board took which was/were in violation of the by-laws and therefore null and void? Or some other action? If you're referring to that action "A" as being null and void- but that has already been carried out and resulted in suspension in two cases- I just don't follow. Please help me with it. And, in the other case, where the president overrode a majority vote by the board and decided to not submit a member's name for consideration for Honorary Membership by our membership (as the by-laws call for), I have already taken action and re-submitted his name for consideration. If I understand the facts correctly, all of the situations have been resolved, so neither Amend Something Previously Adopted nor a Point of Order is applicable. I would advise adopting a motion regarding the assembly's opinion on these cases, as discussed above. Josh, you refer to our by-laws. In a previous posting, I cited where our by-laws could be accessed if members were interested. Have you read them? I have not, and even if I had, I couldn't talk about them here. I'm taking you at your word that the board's actions are in violation of the bylaws. This forum is limited to discussion of RONR. You can e-mail if you like. I believe there is a link in my profile to do that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobby101 Posted September 9, 2014 at 06:57 PM Author Report Share Posted September 9, 2014 at 06:57 PM Gentlemen: I'm going to try to summarize what I've been trying to address in my various posts since July 2013. Your answers that I've received have been helpful to me but I'm stuck in the following dilemma and would appreciate your thoughts based on your knowledge of RONR, 11th ed.) Our board has violated the Club's by-laws in three distinct cases in 2012 and 2013. The violations are clear and there is no ambiguity (what I will call "weasel room") in any of the cases. The board has not responded in any meaningful way to address these charges that I have identified to them -and others- over this period of time. I had hoped with the election of several new members that we could address and resolve these charges. It appears that this year's board is not willing to do this. For many reasons, I do not want to call a special meeting although I believe I could gather enough support to force the board to do this. I don't want to polarize the club any further and have told the board I will not work to that end. Is there anything in RONR that I have as an option to pursue? If not, I believe my only other recourse is to sue and I'm prepared to do that but only after exhausting all other options. Please advise. Thank you, Mr. Simons (Bob). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgar Guest Posted September 9, 2014 at 07:11 PM Report Share Posted September 9, 2014 at 07:11 PM For many reasons, I do not want to call a special meeting although I believe I could gather enough support to force the board to do this. I don't want to polarize the club any further and have told the board I will not work to that end. Is there anything in RONR that I have as an option to pursue? If not, I believe my only other recourse is to sue and I'm prepared to do that but only after exhausting all other options. You don't want to polarize the club by calling a special meeting but you're prepared to sue the club (or the board or board members?) if you have no other option? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobby101 Posted September 9, 2014 at 10:05 PM Author Report Share Posted September 9, 2014 at 10:05 PM To: Edgar Guest and all others --- Mr. Guest: You seem to glide by the fact that these boards(2012 and 2013) have violated the by-laws; sanctioned 2 members and deprived another (our longest-term member and former officer and president) of his right to be presented to the membership for special recognition; have not addressed this issue despite having been confronted with several letters from me and other past presidents detailing exactly how these violations have taken place; and have lied and misrepresented the situations. Yet, nothing has been done to remedy this. What I'm seeking is advice on whether there is a possible remedy to this situation in accordance with RONR. As far as a possible suit, yes, that's my last recourse. And, I really don't want to pursue it. But, I have tried over more than 2 years to address these issues which involve the rights of members of our club which have been trampled by these boards. I will not stand idly by when the actions of these boards don't address the issues that are real and in stead attack me personally and destroy a reputation that I have earned for honesty, truthfulness, and service to this organization. These boards have not acted in accordance with our by-laws and for the good of the membership. All 3 instances involve the board using its position and power in an abusive way to punish members! I'm asking you experts whether there's another way. And, I'm also asking you how you would handle (have handled) this situation if it happened to you. Awaiting your response. Thank you, Mr. Simons (Bob) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgar Guest Posted September 9, 2014 at 10:12 PM Report Share Posted September 9, 2014 at 10:12 PM I'm also asking you how you would handle (have handled) this situation if it happened to you. I apologize if I'm "gliding by the facts" but I suspect I would have quit this club a long time ago. Edited to add: Life's too short. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Zev Posted September 9, 2014 at 11:42 PM Report Share Posted September 9, 2014 at 11:42 PM If you will not take Mr Martin's advice nor Mr. Guest's advice then apparently that leaves you with only one alternative, and in my most humble opinion that alternative will result in a huge disaster. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh Martin Posted September 10, 2014 at 12:24 AM Report Share Posted September 10, 2014 at 12:24 AM To: Edgar Guest and all others --- Mr. Guest: You seem to glide by the fact that these boards(2012 and 2013) have violated the by-laws; sanctioned 2 members and deprived another (our longest-term member and former officer and president) of his right to be presented to the membership for special recognition; have not addressed this issue despite having been confronted with several letters from me and other past presidents detailing exactly how these violations have taken place; and have lied and misrepresented the situations. Yet, nothing has been done to remedy this. What I'm seeking is advice on whether there is a possible remedy to this situation in accordance with RONR. As far as a possible suit, yes, that's my last recourse. And, I really don't want to pursue it. But, I have tried over more than 2 years to address these issues which involve the rights of members of our club which have been trampled by these boards. I will not stand idly by when the actions of these boards don't address the issues that are real and in stead attack me personally and destroy a reputation that I have earned for honesty, truthfulness, and service to this organization. These boards have not acted in accordance with our by-laws and for the good of the membership. All 3 instances involve the board using its position and power in an abusive way to punish members! I'm asking you experts whether there's another way. And, I'm also asking you how you would handle (have handled) this situation if it happened to you. Awaiting your response. Thank you, Mr. Simons (Bob) You've received several suggestions about "other ways" but you don't seem to like any of them. If you could clarify what it is you want to do, perhaps we can help. It would also be helpful if you could clarify whether any of the actions the board was taken which are in violation of the bylaws are still in effect. I'm still a little unclear on whether or not this is the case. If any of these actions are still in effect, the appropriate course of action would be a Point of Order that the action is null and void, followed by an Appeal if necessary. If they are no longer in effect, we're back at the suggestions to adopt a motion expressing the assembly's opinions on these subjects (that the members were wrongfully deprived of their rights) and/or to punish the board in some fashion. Personally, I would use a Point of Order and Appeal for the actions still in effect (if any). I'd also initiate procedures to remove the responsible board members from office. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobby101 Posted September 10, 2014 at 01:44 AM Author Report Share Posted September 10, 2014 at 01:44 AM Gentlemen: In order; Mr. Guest--a lot of or members have quit the club, over 100 in the last year...almost 25% of the members. Yes, I can quit the club, but why should I?. I should do it because of violations of the board which I've tried to address and remedy in a completely open and transparent way? That just doesn't make sense to me. To Zev--I can't agree with you more about the huge disaster but it's a disaster caused by the board's actions and their refusal to address their actions. I have mentioned this possibility of a suit, which was first suggested to me by some other authorities, and I think the board believes I'm bluffing. I don't threaten and I don't bluff. To Josh--It's not that I don't like the suggestions you and others have offered, it's that I'm looking for what I think might be the most effective way to proceed. And, I think you've all been helpful to me in identifying some approaches and I'm grateful for your thinking and your experience. What I'd like to do is: 1-to get the board to admit they violated the by-laws 2-to apologize to the membership for their actions 3-to strengthen and clarify our by-laws to at least minimize the possibility of a recurrence of these kinds of actions ( to this point, I've suggested several changes to the by-laws which can do this but am hearing from our new board that this is not the time to introduce this.) I want to stress that the changes I'm suggesting in no way point to the actions of those 2012 and 2013 boards or place blame but are for the benefit of the rights of the membership. To your point of whether the actions are in effect; both sanctions have been served (one of the sanctioned, a 4 time club champion, has dropped from the club) I am still currently a member. The other issue did not involve a sanction--it was an action that prevented a member from being considered for Honorary Membership; it was, however, a violation of the by-laws. I've mentioned before that I have the ability to address that violation and have done so. I guess one could argue that that one is still in effect and will be until our membership meeting. So, I guess that 2 of the actions have been carried out in answer to your question. It looks like we're back to your suggestion to adopt a motion expressing the assembly's opinion... I've also said before I have no interest in punishing the board or initiating procedures to remove anyone from the board. I don't think the club could withstand the furor that would unleash and I have no desire to find out. My main interest is in rectifying the injustices already done and trying to make sure that they don't happen again. I'm trying not to be obtuse but would appreciate your walking me through the process of how I would go about try to adopt the motion ( whether I can present it, etc. what kind of support I need; I assume it works best at our upcoming membership meeting, whether a majority can rule or a 2/3 vote is required. If I decide to do it, I want to do it right. I hope this answers your questions and again appreciate the time and effort you've put in helping me decide how to proceed. Thank you, Mr. Simons (Bob) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh Martin Posted September 10, 2014 at 01:51 AM Report Share Posted September 10, 2014 at 01:51 AM To Josh--It's not that I don't like the suggestions you and others have offered, it's that I'm looking for what I think might be the most effective way to proceed. And, I think you've all been helpful to me in identifying some approaches and I'm grateful for your thinking and your experience. What I'd like to do is: 1-to get the board to admit they violated the by-laws 2-to apologize to the membership for their actions 3-to strengthen and clarify our by-laws to at least minimize the possibility of a recurrence of these kinds of actions ( to this point, I've suggested several changes to the by-laws which can do this but am hearing from our new board that this is not the time to introduce this.) I want to stress that the changes I'm suggesting in no way point to the actions of those 2012 and 2013 boards or place blame but are for the benefit of the rights of the membership. I really don't know how much RONR can help you with accomplishing the first two objectives. You can certainly try to adopt a motion ordering the board to admit that they violated the bylaws and apologize to the membership for their actions. Whether the board will listen is another matter. As for the third issue, it seems you already know what to do - amend the bylaws. It looks like we're back to your suggestion to adopt a motion expressing the assembly's opinion... I've also said before I have no interest in punishing the board or initiating procedures to remove anyone from the board. I don't think the club could withstand the furor that would unleash and I have no desire to find out. My main interest is in rectifying the injustices already done and trying to make sure that they don't happen again. I'm trying not to be obtuse but would appreciate your walking me through the process of how I would go about try to adopt the motion ( whether I can present it, etc. what kind of support I need; I assume it works best at our upcoming membership meeting, whether a majority can rule or a 2/3 vote is required. If I decide to do it, I want to do it right. I hope this answers your questions and again appreciate the time and effort you've put in helping me decide how to proceed. Thank you, Mr. Simons (Bob) Yes, I would make such a motion at the upcoming membership. You can make the motion yourself and a second is required. The motion is debatable and a majority vote is required for adoption. A motion ordering the board to apologize would work the same way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobby101 Posted September 10, 2014 at 01:14 PM Author Report Share Posted September 10, 2014 at 01:14 PM Josh: Thanks for responding and answering my basic question on how to proceed. Mr. Simons (Bob) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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