Bylaws Committee

[Guest Greg Manahan]

I am a member of a By Law Committee, as a committee can only do what the organization asks it to do; it can not act independently of the organization. However, if a committee originates an idea that it feels will benefit the group, it can bring the idea to the membership in the form of a motion.

 

The committee debated the motion and ruled to reject the motion as written and recommended a survey of the membership which results my lead to a By Law change.

 

My question, the membership must first vote on the committee report and recommendation. If defeated, does the original the go back to the membership for vote or does it automatically become effective?

[jstackpo]

First of all, you don't vote "on the ...report", only the recommendation that came from the committee.

 

But now I am not clear:  what is "the original" you speak of?  

[Hieu H. Huynh]

The committee debated the motion and ruled to reject the motion as written...

 

 ... If defeated, does the original the go back to the membership for vote or does it automatically become effective?

 

It is preferable to avoid a motion containing a negative statement since members may become confused as to the effect of voting for or against such a motion.

[Guest Greg]

Unfortunately it’s too late as the committee will not meet again before reading with the membership

[Hieu H. Huynh]

I would leave out the part of the motion which recommends not doing something since the same result can be accomplished by offering no motion at all.

 

Note that in the case when a motion is referred to a committee and the committee's recommendation is in the negative, the question is always stated and put on the adoption of the motion (the recommendation of the committee to the contrary notwithstanding).

[Gary Novosielski]

I am a member of a By Law Committee, as a committee can only do what the organization asks it to do; it can not act independently of the organization. However, if a committee originates an idea that it feels will benefit the group, it can bring the idea to the membership in the form of a motion.

 

The committee debated the motion and ruled to reject the motion as written and recommended a survey of the membership which results my lead to a By Law change.

 

My question, the membership must first vote on the committee report and recommendation. If defeated, does the original the go back to the membership for vote or does it automatically become effective?

It's not at all clear what's going on here, but one thing you can be sure of is that the recommendations of the committee, whatever they are, must be presented to the membership as recommendations (i.e., recommended motions).  In order for anything to become "effective", the membership will have to adopt those recommendations.  

 

The membership is free to adopt, amend, or completely ignore the recommendations of the committee.

[Kim Goldsworthy]

I am a member of a By Law Committee.

As a committee can only do what the organization asks it to do; it can not act independently of the organization.

However, if a committee originates an idea that it feels will benefit the group, it can bring the idea to the membership in the form of a motion.

 

The committee debated the motion

and ruled to reject the motion as written

and recommended a survey of the membership which results my lead to a By Law change.

 

My question, the membership must first vote on the committee report and recommendation. If defeated, does the original the go back to the membership for vote or does it automatically become effective?

Your question is garbled.

Let's see if I get this straight.

 

* While the bylaws committee met, it thought up an original idea. (For tangibility sake, let's pretend it is a simple one, like "To increase dues by one dollar.")

 

* While the bylaws committee pondered its own original idea, the committee ultimately rejected the idea. (e.g., "We recommend to keep the dues as is.")

 

* The bylaws commmittee reported out to the general membership.

 

* In its report, the general membership learns that

(a.) the committee thought up an original idea;

(b.) and pondered its ramifications.

(c.) and rejected the idea.

 

In general, the general membershp it to never vote on a non-motion, as that would be out of order.

The "non-motion" here is the report's sentence,

"We thought of doing X, but we decided not to recommend X to the general membership."

(In my example, X = "to raise dues by one dollar.")

 

Right?

 

So, to answer your question:

"No" -- the original idea is not to be voted on, as the bylaws committee failed to make that recommendation.

 

It would take a member of the general membership to make that motion (on the original idea) for the general memership to vote on the original idea.

You cannot vote on a recommendation which was not truly moved on behalf of the committee.

Quite the opposite.

 

To cover the other instance . . .

You will, of course, vote on the survey, as that was truly a motion moved on behalf of the committee.

[Guest Greg]

Interesting, the By Law presented to the committee was to change the start time of the general monthly meeting.

 

The committee concenses, reject based on various reasons.  Most import, protecting quorum, basic requirement of the Lodge to carry out regular business functions.

 

The committee recommended survey or membership for best time, location and day of regular monthly meeting.

 

What happens next?

If committee recommendation fails vote, what happens to committee recommendation?

Does the original proposal receives another vote or is in effect because of failed committee recommendation vote?

[Edgar Guest]

What happens next?

If committee recommendation fails vote, what happens to committee recommendation?

Does the original proposal receives another vote or is in effect because of failed committee recommendation vote?

 

If the committee's recommendation is not adopted by the general membership, that's it (for now). It's just a motion that went down in defeat.

 

As I understand it, the original proposal never made it out of the committee so that's not under consideration (unless, as Mr. Goldsworthy noted, a member wants to make that motion on his own).

 

So, unless the defeated motion is "renewed" (i.e. made again), the start time of the meeting remains the same.

 

Speaking of which, the start times for meetings is a level of detail not usually included in bylaws.

[Kim Goldsworthy]

 

the By Law presented to the committee was

to change the start time of the general monthly meeting.

 

The committee concenses, reject based on various reasons.  

[bUT]

The committee recommended survey of membership for [X].

 

What happens next?

If committee recommendation fails vote, what happens to committee recommendation?

Does the original proposal receives another vote or is in effect because of failed committee recommendation vote?

Greg,

You are confusing two things:

1.) To vote on a motion, i.e., an action item.

2.) To vote on a recommendation "that no action be taken."

 

Side note:

I have seen this error occur in conventions. --

The delegates think,

"If the committee report contains a recommendation TO NOT-DO-SOMETHING,

and the prevailing vote is negative,

then does that imply that WE DO SOMETHING?

 

 

The committee report says,

"Let's not change the start hour of our meetings."

 

Now, your members are trying to vote on the pseudo-motion:

"THAT WE NOT CHANGE THE START HOUR OF OUR MEETINGS."

 

You can't do that. -- You cannot vote on a motion "To not do X."

You cannot vote on a motion whose effect is identical with LEAVING THE STATUS QUO IN PLACE.

[Guest Greg Manahan]

 Okay, so the first point is the committee recommendation is to reject the proposal to change the start time which in included in the by Laws.

The vote by the membership would be to accept or reject the committee’s recommendation.

If rejected, what happens to the original proposal to change the start time?

[jstackpo]

If the motion to change the start time is rejected   ---   NOT the "committee's recommendation", but the actual motion to make a change is what you vote on   ---   then nothing changes.

 

The start time is then the same as it has "always" been.

[Edgar Guest]

Okay, so the first point is the committee recommendation is to reject the proposal to change the start time which in included in the by Laws.

I thought the committee's recommendation was to conduct a membership survey. 

 

 . . . what happens to the original proposal to change the start time?

As noted, it never got out of committee. But, also as noted, any member is free to make a motion to amend the bylaws to change the start time. Although a better approach would be to amend the bylaws to remove the start time and just make it a policy that could be more easily changed as conditions warrant. Do you really want to have to amend the bylaws every time you want to change the time a meeting starts?

[Guest Greg Manahan]

The motion to change the start time was what the committee rejected and recommended to the membership. Therefore asking membership to reject the motion to change the start time.

 

The first vote from the membership would be to accept or reject the committee recommendation. If

rejected ???????........

[Kim Goldsworthy]

 Okay, so the first point is the committee recommendation is to reject the proposal to change the start time which in included in the by Laws.

The vote by the membership would be to accept or reject the committee’s recommendation.

If rejected, what happens to the original proposal to change the start time?

The vote by the membership would be

to accept or reject the committee’s recommendation.

 

No!

Stop voting on rejected recommendations.

 

***

 

What you do NEXT is dependent on WHERE the idea came from.

 

Q. Where did this idea (namely, to change the start hour) come from?

 

A.) If the idea originated within the committee, then NOTHING is to be done.

 

There is no motion.

No one moved to change the start hour.

So there is nothing to vote on.

(A rejection of an idea is not a vote-able thing. It is out of order.)

 

B.) If the idea was referred to the committee from an outside source (i.e., a superior body), then the chair puts the question on the item in its positive form, despite the committee's rejection of the item.

 

E.g.,

The motion is,

"to change the start hour,

from 'five o'clock',

to 'six o'clock',

the committee report notwithstanding."

[. . . or . . .]

". . . despite the negative report by the committee."

 

See?

Where the original idea come from an outside source,

you put the question in an "adoptable" (ready-to-change the status quo) wording,

and you do this regardless of now bad an idea the committee thought the idea was.

 

If the original idea originated within the committee,

and was not adopted by the committee (as you say the committee report said the committee deliberated upon the idea, but ultimately rejected the idea),

then no motion has been moved.

No recommendation has been moved.

It is just an informational sentence or paragraph about what the committee did, and what the committee nearly adopted, but didn't.

[Edgar Guest]

The motion to change the start time was what the committee rejected and recommended to the membership.

 

The committee can't reject it and recommend it at the same time.

[Guest Greg Manahan]

Thank You all

 

Kim, what you state makes sense. Edgar, the committee did not reject and recommend the same. The committee recommended not to change, which came from outside source using Kim analogy.  

 

If the idea was referred to the committee from an outside source (i.e., a superior body), then the chair puts the question on the item in its positive form, despite the committee's rejection of the item.

 

E.g.,

The motion is, "to change the start hour, from 'five o'clock, to 'six o'clock', the committee report notwithstanding."

or

". . . despite the negative report by the committee."

 

See?

Where the idea come from an outside source,

you put the question in an "adoptable" (ready-to-change the status quo) wording,

and you do this regardless of now bad an idea the committee thought the idea was.

[Edgar Guest]

Edgar, the committee did not reject and recommend the same.

 

If you say so.

 

The motion to change the start time was what the committee rejected and recommended to the membership.

[Richard Brown]

I think guest Greg still doesn't understand that if the committee isn't recommending changing something, then there is nothing to vote on.  The committee chairman makes a report that the committee considered, but rejected, the idea of changing the start time of meetings.  PERIOD.  THAT'S IT.  END OF REPORT.  NO MOTION.  NOTHING TO VOTE ON.  The chair moves on to the next item of business.

 

The only exception would be if someone had actually made a motion to amend the bylaws to change the start time and that motion was referred to the committee.  In that case, the committee would report that it recommends AGAINST adoption of the motion changing the start time.  The chair should then put the original motion to change the start time to a vote, with the statement, as Kim Goldsworthy suggested, "the vote is on the motion to change the start time of meetings notwithstanding the recommendation of the committee.  All those in favor say aye.  All opposed say no.  The motion to change the start time (which is actually an amendment to the bylaws) would then be voted up or down.

 

Note:  If there was never an actual motion to amend the bylaws to change the meeting start time referred to the committee, but the committee was asked simply to study the issue, then there is nothing to vote on because there was never an actual motion to amend the bylaws to change the start time.

 

Caveat:  If there is an actual motion to amend the bylaws, you also need to follow whatever notice requirements are in your bylaws for amending the bylaws.

[Edgar Guest]

The committee chairman makes a report that the committee considered, but rejected, the idea of changing the start time of meetings.  PERIOD.  THAT'S IT.  END OF REPORT.  NO MOTION.  NOTHING TO VOTE ON. 

 

Instead of reporting what the committee rejected, why wouldn't the committee chair report what the committee recommended (i.e. a survey of the membership)

[Richard Brown]

Instead of reporting what the committee rejected, why wouldn't the committee chair report what the committee recommended (i.e. a survey of the membership)

You're right.  I forgot about the survey recommendation amidst all the discussion about amending the bylaws.  It would then be appropriate for the committee chairman to conclude his report by moving, on behalf of the committee, that the association conduct a survey of its members regarding the advisability of amending the bylaws to change the start time. 

[Guest Greg Manahan]

Thanks Richard,

 

A member had actually made a motion to amend the bylaws to change the start time and that motion was referred to the committee.  The committee reported that it recommends AGAINST adoption of the motion changing the start time. 

 

The chair should then put the original motion to change the start time to a vote, with the statement, as Kim Goldsworthy suggested, "the vote is on the motion to change the start time of meetings notwithstanding the recommendation of the committee.  All those in favor say aye.  All opposed say no.  The motion to change the start time (which is actually an amendment to the bylaws) would then be voted up or down.

 

It would then be appropriate for the committee chairman to conclude his report by moving, on behalf of the committee, that the association conduct a survey of its members regarding the advisability of amending the bylaws to change the start time.

[Dan Honemann]

Thanks Richard,

 

A member had actually made a motion to amend the bylaws to change the start time and that motion was referred to the committee.  The committee reported that it recommends AGAINST adoption of the motion changing the start time. 

 

The chair should then put the original motion to change the start time to a vote, with the statement, as Kim Goldsworthy suggested, "the vote is on the motion to change the start time of meetings notwithstanding the recommendation of the committee.  All those in favor say aye.  All opposed say no.  The motion to change the start time (which is actually an amendment to the bylaws) would then be voted up or down.

 

It would then be appropriate for the committee chairman to conclude his report by moving, on behalf of the committee, that the association conduct a survey of its members regarding the advisability of amending the bylaws to change the start time.

 

To be a bit more accurate, after the report of the committee recommending rejection of the motion referred to it has been made, that motion automatically becomes the pending motion, and the chair should state the question on it as follows:

 

"The committee to which was referred the motion to amend the bylaws by changing the starting time of the general monthly meeting recommends that it not be adopted. The motion is . . . [reading it]. The question is on the adoption of the motion, the recommendation of the committee to the contrary notwithstanding."

 

Note that the motion to amend the bylaws will then be open to further debate, amendment, etc. It is not immediately put to a vote.

[Guest Greg Manahan]

Thank you all,

 

 

So everyone can understand,

 

An out side party (a member) made a motion to amend a By Law; (the start time of the regular meeting) which was in the By Laws.

 

The By Law recommendation was referred to committee.

 

The committee unanimously in their report recommended rejection of the proposed start time change. With a suggestion to survey the membership and use the information from the survey for the executive in future.

 

The Chair ought to have the committee report read up to the committee recommendation to reject the proposed change.

 

The committee recommendation goes to vote on the floor.

 

If the committee recommendation vote is Nay. The original from the outside party goes back to the floor. (The membership) notwithstanding the recommendation of the committee.

 

Amendments not more than two and individually placed to the membership and voted on. Eg. I wish to amend the start time to XX.

 

Once the ordeal is finalized, the chair ask for conclusion from the committee;  then it would be appropriate for the committee chairman to conclude his report by moving, on behalf of the committee, that the association conduct a survey of its members regarding the advisability of amending the bylaws to change the start time

 

 

 

[Guest Greg Manahan]

How does one become a member?