Fire Department President cancels elections of new officers

[Guest Confused member]

Starting off bylaw changes were made in 2013 to add in a percentage rule to be consider eligable to hold or vote for and elected office to become effective in 1/1/2014.

 

Changes state that a member needs to attend 5 monthly meetings, have 25% of calls, special meetings, fundraisers combined, & 16hrs of training by the December meeting. For unknown reasons records where not kept by anyone for any of the above with the exception of the monthly meetings.

So at tonight’s meeting the president stated that we were not having elections due to the fact that everyone in the department was in eligible to hold or vote for officers. (Mind you nominations have already taken place in the November meeting for all open offices of the Fire Company) He stated that we were not able to disregard the said bylaw addendum and continue with elections (as it has been done in the past when the percentage rule has been added). He states that all current officials are to stay in office until the following elections to be held in December of 2015. We were also told that we were unable to fall back on Roberts Rules due to the fact that we have bylaws in our department.

Needless to say several of the members are angry and feel that this is wrong and illegal.

 

I am asking for the correct meaning of using Roberts Rules when your organization has bylaws in place.

 

It is felt by several members that a motion and vote should have been given by the membership as to whether or not that article of the bylaws be voided/over turned and replaced it with the previous version of that said article or elections been able to happen with what information was available which was only one of the stipulations.

[Richard Brown]

As to whether RONR (Robert's  Rules of Order Newly Revised) is applicable, do your bylaws contain a provision establishing a parliamentary authority, such as the usual statement along these lines:  "Parliamentary Authority
The rules contained in the current edition of Robert's Rules of Order Newly Revised shall govern the Society in all cases to which they are applicable and in which they are not inconsistent with these bylaws and any special rules of order the Society may adopt."

 

RONR serves as a supplement to the bylaws, not as a substitute for bylaws.  It provides the rules of order for conducting meetings.

 

Except for a few commonly used phrases with an established meaning in the common parliamentary law, it will be up to your organization to interpret your own bylaws and to decide how to handle the issue of inadequate records.  However, unless your bylaws give him this authority, your president does not have the power to make those decisions on his own.  Any ruling on a point of order that he makes is subject to appeal to the board or full membership, as the case may be.  It is the members who have the final word, not the president.

 

Edited to add:  Even if your bylaws do not establish a parliamentary authority, RONR may be persuasive in helping to settle procedural issues as it is based on the common parliamentary law. 

[Guest Confused member]

Yes our Bylaws state:

 

Parliamentary Authority

Robert’s Rules of Order (Revised) shall govern the organization in all instances inconsistent with these bylaws.

 

 

 

 

[Hieu H. Huynh]

Although your bylaws supersede RONR, RONR is still applicable for rules where your bylaws are silent. 

 

The president only has such power as the bylaws provide it. Elections should be held in accordance with your bylaws. 

 

Your bylaws could be amended to remove the attendance requirements so that the elected officers could be eligible.

[Edgar Guest]

It is felt by several members that a motion and vote should have been given by the membership as to whether or not that article of the bylaws be voided/over turned and replaced it with the previous version of that said article or elections been able to happen with what information was available which was only one of the stipulations.

 

It's not enough to just "feel" that way. A member has to actually make a motion to amend the bylaws.

[Guest Confused member]

It's not enough to just "feel" that way. A member has to actually make a motion to amend the bylaws.

 

We unsterstand that but we were denied that right by the president! We were told the bylaws make elections unable to be held.

[Edgar Guest]

We underrstand that but we were denied that right by the president! We were told the bylaws make elections unable to be held.

 

Well, the president may have been correct in that amending the bylaws usually requires previous notice (check your bylaws to see exactly how much notice is required). So you probably couldn't have amended your bylaws at last night's meeting. But you may be able to do so at the next meeting (either the next regular meeting or at a special meeting). Only if your bylaws say that they can only be amended at the annual meeting will you have to wait until next December.

[Dan Honemann]

We unsterstand that but we were denied that right by the president! We were told the bylaws make elections unable to be held.

 

An appeal could (and it seems to me should) have been taken from this ruling by the chair, and the assembly could have decided the matter for itself.

[Gary Novosielski]

Yes our Bylaws state:

 

Parliamentary Authority

Robert’s Rules of Order (Revised) shall govern the organization in all instances inconsistent with these bylaws.

 

That's exactly backwards.  In instances where the rules in RONR are inconsistent with the rules in your bylaws, it is your bylaws which (should) govern.  That language says the opposite!

 

If you were to go by that sentence, bylaws only apply in those situations where RONR is silent.

[Edgar Guest]

Yes our Bylaws state:

 

Parliamentary Authority

Robert’s Rules of Order (Revised) shall govern the organization in all instances inconsistent with these bylaws.

 

That's exactly backwards.  In instances where the rules in RONR are inconsistent with the rules in your bylaws, it is your bylaws which (should) govern.  That language says the opposite!

 

If you were to go by that sentence, bylaws only apply in those situations where RONR is silent.

 

Let's hope it's just an inaccurate transcription.

[Guest Confused member]

Well, the president may have been correct in that amending the bylaws usually requires previous notice (check your bylaws to see exactly how much notice is required). So you probably couldn't have amended your bylaws at last night's meeting. But you may be able to do so at the next meeting (either the next regular meeting or at a special meeting). Only if your bylaws say that they can only be amended at the annual meeting will you have to wait until next December.

5

Equipment Officer, Assistant Equipment Officer, Truck Foreman, Assistant Truck Foreman, and Public Relations officer.

2. The Chief may not hold the position of Vice-President or President.

3. Qualifications for the office of Fire Chief shall be prior experience as a Fire Chief, Assistant Fire Chief, and/or Deputy Fire Chief of the Company.

4. Qualifications for the office of Assistant Fire Chief and/or Deputy Fire Chief shall be prior experience as Assistant Fire Chief, Deputy Fire Chief, or junior officer (captain/lieutenant).

Article 6

Duties of Elected Officers

Duties of the President

The President shall:

Preside over all meetings of the Company

Appoint chairpersons and/or members of all standing and/or special committees as needed

Be an ex officio member of all committees.

Appoint annually a budget and/or finance committee and/or chairperson.

Appoint annually an ole home day committee and/or chairperson.

Appoint annually a bylaw committee.

Appoint other permanent or temporary committees and/or chairpersons as needed.

Appoint delegates to regional, state, and interstate organizations, which the Company may choose to join.

Direct and control the Company at all functions and other non-emergency situations at which the Company is involved, unless controlled by Trustees as stated in Article 8 of bylaws.

 

Bylaw Committee and/or Chairperson

This Committee shall:

Review as necessary, the Bylaws of the Company.

Make necessary updates as amendments are added, deleted, or changed.

[Guest Confused member]

Please disregard everything above the Article 6 for some reason it copied other things as well.

[Edgar Guest]

Appoint annually an ole home day committee and/or chairperson.

 

ole?

[Guest Confused member]

Yes Ole.. thats how our department spelled the name of the carnival in the 50's/60's.

[Guest Nancy N.]

An appeal could (and it seems to me should) have been taken from this ruling by the chair, and the assembly could have decided the matter for itself.

 

INdeed, a veritable congeries of dopey rulings.

 

It seems to me as if two or three of the knotty problems here might be easily fixed.

 

1.  It seems to me that, in the absence of complete records, it cannot be proven either way as to whether anyone is qualified, or not qualified, to vote or to hold office.  The president can't decide all by himself that everybody is disqualified.

 

2.  It seems to me that if the absence of records disqualifies anyone (and everyone) from voting, then everyone and everyone is just as disqualified from holding office.  Either the membership is somehow qualified to vote, in which case the elections must be held, or you have no officers.

 

2a.  For that matter, depending on how the bylaws are worded, it's likely that those who -- supposedly -- failed to qualify to vote in elections or to hold office, are equally ineligible to vote for anything at all.

 

I'm not sure how all this might be dealt with.  Mr. Honemann says "should have," pointing out that it's way too late now to appeal (ROR, p. 257, SDC 3).  But I suspect that I'm overlooking something:  it's maybe absurd that, with the president's having made those declarations and nobody appealed, then it's set in stone.

 

Maybe I'm jsut out of practice somehow.

-- Nancy N.

[Dan Honemann]

5

Equipment Officer, Assistant Equipment Officer, Truck Foreman, Assistant Truck Foreman, and Public Relations officer.

2. The Chief may not hold the position of Vice-President or President.

3. Qualifications for the office of Fire Chief shall be prior experience as a Fire Chief, Assistant Fire Chief, and/or Deputy Fire Chief of the Company.

4. Qualifications for the office of Assistant Fire Chief and/or Deputy Fire Chief shall be prior experience as Assistant Fire Chief, Deputy Fire Chief, or junior officer (captain/lieutenant).

Article 6

Duties of Elected Officers

Duties of the President

The President shall:

Preside over all meetings of the Company

Appoint chairpersons and/or members of all standing and/or special committees as needed

Be an ex officio member of all committees.

Appoint annually a budget and/or finance committee and/or chairperson.

Appoint annually an ole home day committee and/or chairperson.

Appoint annually a bylaw committee.

Appoint other permanent or temporary committees and/or chairpersons as needed.

Appoint delegates to regional, state, and interstate organizations, which the Company may choose to join.

Direct and control the Company at all functions and other non-emergency situations at which the Company is involved, unless controlled by Trustees as stated in Article 8 of bylaws.

 

Bylaw Committee and/or Chairperson

This Committee shall:

Review as necessary, the Bylaws of the Company.

Make necessary updates as amendments are added, deleted, or changed.

 

 

Please disregard everything above the Article 6 for some reason it copied other things as well.

 

I think I'll disregard everything below "Article 6" as well, since all of it appears to be irrelevant.

[Dan Honemann]

INdeed, a veritable congeries of dopey rulings.

 

It seems to me as if two or three of the knotty problems here might be easily fixed.

 

1.  It seems to me that, in the absence of complete records, it cannot be proven either way as to whether anyone is qualified, or not qualified, to vote or to hold office.  The president can't decide all by himself that everybody is disqualified.

 

2.  It seems to me that if the absence of records disqualifies anyone (and everyone) from voting, then everyone and everyone is just as disqualified from holding office.  Either the membership is somehow qualified to vote, in which case the elections must be held, or you have no officers.

 

2a.  For that matter, depending on how the bylaws are worded, it's likely that those who -- supposedly -- failed to qualify to vote in elections or to hold office, are equally ineligible to vote for anything at all.

 

I'm not sure how all this might be dealt with.  Mr. Honemann says "should have," pointing out that it's way too late now to appeal (ROR, p. 257, SDC 3).  But I suspect that I'm overlooking something:  it's maybe absurd that, with the president's having made those declarations and nobody appealed, then it's set in stone.

 

Maybe I'm jsut out of practice somehow.

-- Nancy N.

 

I think the members can and should insist on holding an election at their next monthly meeting. If the chair again rules that everyone in the department is ineligible to hold or vote for officers, an appeal from this ruling can and should be taken at that time.

 

And maybe you are jsut out of practice. You've been away for too long.